Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBSR)

Discussion of present-day CM&Q operations, as well as discussion of predecessors Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) and Bangor & Aroostook Railroad (BAR).

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fogg1703
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by fogg1703 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:43 pm

CN9634 wrote:Only equipment the RR has to provide are the well cars.
What railroad is responsible for providing well cars? NBM? Doesn't being a non TTX partner add cost to car hire?
CN9634 wrote:Also NAFTA 2.0 solved the customs issue (which I asked customs officials and experienced freight forwarders a pointed question about this type of situation in 2012) with a streamlining of electronic submission of customs paperwork and an e-manifest. They were piloting several trains with this system back then running from Prince Rupert into the US or via the US to points in Canada. It's now a moot point and intermodal trains cross in and out of the US across the country all the time now.
Very interesting indeed. Im surprised another go at the Sunbury trains hasn't been attempted.
CN9634 wrote:No way you'd see an NBM-CMQ-CP-CSX routing... too many hands in the pot.
Well now I'm really curious how you propose CP gets into the fray here. If CP was to capture some of this traffic, your suggesting it not economically feasible to interchange with one more road? So Mechanicville, Montreal and/or Toronto are your unloading sites?

I guess I am stuck in an operations based reality. In my mind full DS from Saint John to NY/NJ via Montreal beats single stack service over PAR. It takes advantage of the cost effectiveness of DS even with a possible 24-36 hours addition to trip time but on a consistent time table.

Cowford
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by Cowford » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:05 pm

It's Saint John, NB and St. John's, NL
No way you'd see an NBM-CMQ-CP-CSX routing... too many hands in the pot.
Just a reminder - the domestic Canadian lane in question (Saint John - Toronto) features a three-road, 800-mile route and a one-road, 1,000 mile route.

CN9634
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by CN9634 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:10 pm

The port is not directly served by CN and never has been... was CP track now NBSR at Bayside. Point taken but still have at least 2 roads any way you go.

Cowford
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by Cowford » Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:56 pm

CN has interswitching access rights, no?

CN9634
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by CN9634 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:03 am

Nope they do not. Keep in mind however the east side Potash Terminal, a completely separate facility, is directly served by CN. Likewise, no interswitching by NBSR there (which ended the CP-CMQ-NBS unit Potash trains a week before they started last year).

Cowford
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by Cowford » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:42 pm

That seems odd to me. Interswitching access is universally applied under regulatory edict in Canada. Why the exception in the port of Saint John?

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulatio ... 1.html#h-7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CN9634
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by CN9634 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:52 pm

Interswitching access is applicable uniformly across Canada IF they shipper/consignee apply for it and have a case for approval (key there too is that thw RR can not apply). This just happened to CMQ as they were ramping up to run Potash trains but CN said no. The potash terminal in Saint John has not yet filed for interswitching thus there is no access. Basically, it's not an implied law, it's an applied (when necessary if a case justifies it) law... otherwise you'd have almost every rail line in Canada open to all railroads in Canada... quite a mess that would be.

Cowford
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by Cowford » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:14 pm

Yeah, I don't know if I agree with that interpretation. The port would be a zone 1 or 2... not saying you're wrong, but could you provide evidence of an application requirement for a zone 1 or 2 interswitch? And if you're right about the potash, you're saying that CMQ was "ramping up" to serve a customer that they knew was closed to them???

CN9634
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by CN9634 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:52 am

I'm not familiar with Canadian practices so this is how it was explained to me... I agree it sounds fishy but then again we aren't seeing 170 car potash trains across Maine either. The only ramp up CMQ was doing was to train personal on DPU systems as that was the plan to handle the beasts across Maine on the Moosehead. But alas, the whole legal aspect with the interswitching was chronicled by Atlantic Northeast Rails & Ports, so I would recommend checking that out as I may not have articulated the reasons very for it not happening very well.

Who knows though, maybe we'll see it happen someday?

Also a note, Port Saint John is updating their website. The rail section has really no frills to it, but the highway section has a map with major distances by truck in miles which may be helpful

http://www.sjport.com/cargo/rail/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gokeefe
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by gokeefe » Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:15 am

Interesting to read that 170 car trains would need distributed power. Too much force on the draw bars and couplers otherwise?
gokeefe

CN9634
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by CN9634 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:56 am

Surprised? Really? Try hauling a couple mile long train weighing 23,000 tons (load weight plus tare weight of car) without DPU....

Here is some info:
http://www.canpotex.com/what-we-do/logistics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And a visualization for good measure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHlLNe3A9gk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

KSmitty
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by KSmitty » Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:03 am

Cool, never seen a 1x2x1 DPU setup before.

Can't even imagine anyone trying to run a train of that size across a flat railroad, let alone the Moosehead without DPU.

gokeefe
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by gokeefe » Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:55 am

Not surprised. Just not familiar with the thresholds for DPU. I was wondering if this was more a function of the track geometry (curves and grades) than the train weight.
gokeefe

KSmitty
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by KSmitty » Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:51 pm

In this case its a function of both. But in most cases of DPU on "normal trains" its a function of geometry. Fact is though, these large trains are becoming more common continent wide, and to keep brake pressure up and drawbar pressures down you need DPU to move a 170 car train pretty much anywhere.

DPU presents all sorts of advantages for train handling, but the biggest disadvantage is time, because it takes so much more time cut in the DP, and link everything up. Its why you see DPU in use pretty much everywhere outside of the northeast, because the distances are short and so are the trains. As length of run increases DPU drawbacks are minimized (because once the train is set up, there are no other large time killing processes) and handling increases. Its not efficient to use DPU to move a train 100 miles, but 1000 miles its much more feasible.

gokeefe
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Re: Maine Northern Railway (ex-MMA lines operated by EMR/NBS

Post by gokeefe » Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:54 pm

Fascinating to think that a branch many people, including myself, had pretty much given up on for dead now has some attractive business possibilities.
gokeefe

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