PRR timetable for H&M services - 1942

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Otto Vondrak
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PRR timetable for H&M services - 1942

Post by Otto Vondrak »

Check this timetable I bought on eBay:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ottomatic77/5142742395/

It appears to be a PRR timetable for H&M services between Hudson Terminal and Newark Penn Station. Was this timetable actually for H&M trains, or was this PRR equipment operating as PRR trains between these points?

-otto-
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Ken S.
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Re: PRR timetable for H&M services - 1942

Post by Ken S. »

Has to be H&M trains since the MP54s couldn't run on the H&M's third rail.

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Otto Vondrak
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Re: PRR timetable for H&M services - 1942

Post by Otto Vondrak »

Ken S. wrote:Has to be H&M trains since the MP54s couldn't run on the H&M's third rail.
Then was was all the catenary for?

http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=55137

-otto-
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ExCon90
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Re: PRR timetable for H&M services - 1942

Post by ExCon90 »

Thanks for posting. I take it the Penn Station schedules were on the other side of the paper from the Hudson Terminal ones? The catenary was used by MP54's operating to and from the Jersey City (Exchange Place) terminal of the PRR until it closed in 1961. The Jersey City trains (including those pulled by K4's and, later, Baldwin Sharknoses) shared the same double-track line from just west of Journal Square (the PRR trains bracketed Journal Square station to the north and south on tracks which had no platforms) to just east of Harrison, where the H&M diverged westbound and converged eastbound. Today, where the westbound PATH trains slew to the right to platform at Harrison there used to be a turnout leading straight ahead, continuing into Newark station as Track 4; there was a smash board at the home signal which in the horizontal position was just above the roof line of an H&M car and displayed the lighted letters H-M when the switch was lined for the Harrison platform. In the PRR etts the PRR and H&M trains were shown in the same table, in chronological order, with Exchange Place denoting both the PRR and the H&M station. Each H&M train had its own train number, railroad style. (I've never known whether the owl-faced "McAdoo" cars had the same buff strength as a regular railroad coach, but they shared the same railroad with K4's and diesels.) In Triumph V, the top of page 165 shows the track plan as it was at least until 1961.

Allen Hazen
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Re: PRR timetable for H&M services - 1942

Post by Allen Hazen »

O.k., basic ignorance (of even the rudiments of electrical engineering) here.
H&M trains got 600v DC from a third rail. PRR trains got 11,000v from the overhead wire. Both used "earth" returns: the running rails were part of the circuit.
(Is this right so far?)

So... is there a problem running both kinds of electric train on the same track? I don't ***think*** it would be feasible (certainly with 1940s technology!) to change the current supply (de-energize one and energize the other) between trains, so it must be that (the Earth being a big place with room for lots of electrons to run around in it) there isn't a problem using both kinds of current on the same track. But I am, as I said, abysmally ignorant, and prepared to be surprised.

Can somebody educate me?

JimBoylan
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Re: PRR timetable for H&M services - 1942

Post by JimBoylan »

Otto Vondrak wrote:Check this timetable I bought on eBay:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ottomatic77/5142742395/

It appears to be a PRR timetable for H&M services between Hudson Terminal and Newark Penn Station. Was this timetable actually for H&M trains, or was this PRR equipment operating as PRR trains between these points? -otto-
I think that your answer should be "Both". Some of the tube cars had Keystone emblems on them and were owned by the PRR. They were supposed to be used in Newark service and had extra or different Automatic Train Stop equipment for running on PRR tracks West of Journal Square. The almost identical Hudson & Manhattan owned tube cars were not supposed to be run beyond Journal Square. Even some of the modern 1958 "K" cars had Keystones to show that they were really PRR equipment.

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Otto Vondrak
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Re: PRR timetable for H&M services - 1942

Post by Otto Vondrak »

ExCon90 wrote:Thanks for posting. I take it the Penn Station schedules were on the other side of the paper from the Hudson Terminal ones?
Yes, my scan is both sides of a Form 20.

Thanks for the info, everyone.

-otto-
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n2cbo
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Re: PRR timetable for H&M services - 1942

Post by n2cbo »

Allen Hazen wrote:O.k., basic ignorance (of even the rudiments of electrical engineering) here.
H&M trains got 600v DC from a third rail. PRR trains got 11,000v from the overhead wire. Both used "earth" returns: the running rails were part of the circuit.
(Is this right so far?)

So... is there a problem running both kinds of electric train on the same track? I don't ***think*** it would be feasible (certainly with 1940s technology!) to change the current supply (de-energize one and energize the other) between trains, so it must be that (the Earth being a big place with room for lots of electrons to run around in it) there isn't a problem using both kinds of current on the same track. But I am, as I said, abysmally ignorant, and prepared to be surprised.

Can somebody educate me?
There should be no problem. The same "Earth Return" Also was the return for the 60 Hz 110KV on High Tension Lines and also the 110 & 220 V in the home. As long as none of the above electrical systems shared a common HOT, you are OK since the return is a "Common" Return.

eddiebehr
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Re: PRR timetable for H&M services - 1942

Post by eddiebehr »

The Hudson and Manhattan was built simultaneousley with New York Pennsylvania Station. When Penn. Sta. opened in 1910, all through trains and quite a few secondary trains were rerouted from Jersey City to Penn. The H & M functioned as a distributor from PRR trains at Manhattan Transfer into Downtown New York, Church St. Station in the financial heart of the city and Uptown New York, 33rd St Station more in the retailing and entertainment districts of the city. It also managed to serve the non-PRR Erie, Jersey City Terminal and DL & W Hoboken Terminal. PRR had an interest in the H & M for many years until H & M went bankrupt in the late 1950s and it became PATH. PRR timetables for services into NY City showed its times at Penn. Station and H & M times at Jersey City and Hudson Terminal. The Jersey City Branch was used by both H & M trains and PRR electric trains and steam/diesel trains. PRR service on the Jersey City Branch lasted into the 1960s on a very small scale. Penn Central timetables also showed the H & M service and it might have even carried over into a few early Amtrak issues.

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