New York Pennsylvania (Penn) Station - History, Remnants, etc.

[workextra]

Was steam locomotives permitted in the original station in 1910?
I heard roomers about the Lindberg engine E6 #460 pulling into NY Penn, Is this true?
I would think that because of the long tunnels that steam locomotives would not be permitted anywhere near Penn.

[Otto Vondrak]

Were steam locomotives permitted in the original station in 1910?

Doubtful. The only access to Penn Station then was via the East River Tunnels from Long Island, or the Hudson River Tunnels from New Jersey. The original Penn Station was PRR's first entry into New York.

I would think that because of the long tunnels that steam locomotives would not be permitted anywhere near Penn.

My thoughts, too.

-otto-

[JimBoylan]

I heard roomers about the Lindberg engine E6 #460 pulling into NY Penn, Is this true?

Many accounts of the race mention that the only stop was at Manhattan Transfer, for an engine change. But, about 1905, the station's builder was using steam locos in the construction pit.

[R36 Combine Coach]

When Penn Station was completed in 1910, DD1 third rail locomotives powered trains, changing at Manhattan Transfer. They were used until overhead electrication and GG1s were introduced in 1935.

[ElliotCourtney]

Were is that sighn in penn station?? is it in the LIRR NJT or Amtk concourses??
Elliot

[workextra]

The 1949 clip is showing the main level on the 8th avenue side.
Today that sight (where the glass dome is in the clip) Is located directly under the disgraceful MSG. That glass block floor is the same floor you walk on today though it's covered by layers of "modern flooring".

[Kaback9]

Those are great vids. I wish they would build a new Penn Station that hole in the ground should not even be allowed the same name.

[workextra]

What has to be done now is making is a crime punishable by many years in jail; For any destruction of what little remains of the Temple of Transportation.
There is a lot still left in there. Many of the old stair cases are intact, the old floor is visible in many areas and should be exhumed and restored reused at all costs as a constant reminder of that act of vandalism.
I have to say, every single image I seen of the Post office conversion looks out of this world ridicules.
That building (the PO) is just as historic as the old Penn, and if it does become a train station It should and Must become one representing the old Penn in every way possible.The state should not permit or allow any floating modern glass structure that look insanely hideous. If a glass dome will be in visioned it is to be as close to an exact replica as they can get with out building the old station.
If I can get photos posted I will post some shots of the many remains of "The Temple of Transportation".

[pennsy]

I remember that newstand. It must have been there right until the building was torn down.

[cobra30689]

I understand that there was open air above the platforms when the station was first opened, when the whole operation was third rail, but did the overbuild occur because of impending overhead electrification, or was there no tie between the two and it was done to add space?

Matt

[timz]

No connection to the electrification, except inside the station-- you remember you originally could look down on the tracks from the concourse, and I assume they covered that over when the catenary arrived.

NY Penn opened 1910-- all open air west of 9th Ave (i.e. most platforms were under roof)

Circa 1914, post office opened above the east half of the 8th-9th Ave block

Circa 1934, post office expanded to cover the rest of the 8th-9th Ave block

1957, Lincoln Tunnel north-south access ramp opens above tracks east of 10th Ave

Circa 1970? that yellow building covered the tracks west of the tunnel access ramp.

(I guess I misunderstood your question-- you're only asking about inside the station, aren't you? No, I've never seen exactly when and why they covered those open areas in the concourse. Anybody think why they would need extra space anytime before the catenary went in circa 1932?)

[strench707]

Hello all!

I just have a few questions in regards to NYP so I would like to thank anyone who is able to help in advance.

First Question:

What are those signals used in NYP? Name? Have they always been there? And if anyone has any decent pictures of them I would love to see it.

Second Question:

Where are all the places those funky signals are used? I know they are used in the Hudson Tubes, in NYP itself but I was wondering about whether they were used on the line that connects to the MNRR Hudsons Line, also if they are used in the East River tubes and finally if they are used in that LIRR Yard in Manhattan.

Third Question:

What has become of that large mail platform down there? Is it gone or just sitting there? Is it used? And was it high level (box car door height) or low level/close to the ground?

Fourth Question:

I understand that some tracks are electrified with 3rd rail. I have heard that NYP uses a double stacked system where there is a MNRR third rail stacked above a LIRR third rail so both the Amtrak P32AC-DM's and the LIRR trains can use them. I was wondering which tracks had the 3rd rail. I am assuming not all of them had it. Are some tracks only one kind or are they all stacked? Do some have 3rd rail but no catenary.


Thank you very much

Davis

[JimBoylan]

Penn Station always had L.I.R.R. style 3rd rail, never N.Y.C. style. Amtrak Diesels were converted after they left Grand Central. New Haven Diesels had 3rd rail shoes that could use either type of rail.

[ExCon90]

First question: No particular name that I know of; they simply displayed the night aspects of the semaphores that were used all over the railroad in 1910. When position lights were gradually introduced system-wide later on, the signals remained in place. In the brief glances I've had at them in recent years it appears that they have been replaced with new equipment, but displaying the original aspects.

Second question: They were installed in the North and East River Tunnels and in Penn Station itself because clearances did not permit semaphores, and while color-light signals of that day were not easily visible in bright sunlight, they were clearly visible in the tunnels. From what I can tell from photographs of the earliest days they used semaphores at all outdoor locations.

[strench707]

Penn Station always had L.I.R.R. style 3rd rail, never N.Y.C. style. Amtrak Diesels were converted after they left Grand Central. New Haven Diesels had 3rd rail shoes that could use either type of rail.

So if the Amtrak diesels were converted to LIRR third rail then I must assume they run diesel even where MNRR third rail is present up the Hudson Line. Also, by Amtrak diesels you are referring to the P32AC-DM's?

Also if anyone has any insight on which tracks within the station have the third rail that would be appreciated.

First question: No particular name that I know of; they simply displayed the night aspects of the semaphores that were used all over the railroad in 1910. When position lights were gradually introduced system-wide later on, the signals remained in place. In the brief glances I've had at them in recent years it appears that they have been replaced with new equipment, but displaying the original aspects.

Second question: They were installed in the North and East River Tunnels and in Penn Station itself because clearances did not permit semaphores, and while color-light signals of that day were not easily visible in bright sunlight, they were clearly visible in the tunnels. From what I can tell from photographs of the earliest days they used semaphores at all outdoor locations.

That makes sense. Those tunnels look way too cramped for any PL's or even full tri light signals. I would be interested in what aspects they can display whether they are that of a single headed signal or can display every aspect a double headed signal could display.

If anyone can dig up any pictures of these that would be most appreciated.

Thanks

Davis