1948 20th Century Limited

[JJSmith]

I am curious, what was the typical 1948 consist of the 20th Century Limited? I am particularly interested in the types of sleepers used and the quantity.

Thanks,

JSmith

[Noel Weaver]

During the 40's the New York Central system timetable was quite interesting in that it generally listed the numbers and
types of sleepers on most of its passenger trains. Here is what it had as of July 18, 1948:
Train 25 the Twentieth Century Limited had:
Club Loung Car (Buffet) - New York to Chicago
Sleeping cars:
New York to Los Angeles (4 Comp, 4 Double Bedroom, 2 Drawing Room) - In Santa Fe 19 from Chicago
New York to Los Angeles (10 Roomette, 5 Double Bedroom) - In Santa Fe 19 from Chicago
New York to Chicago (4 Comp, 4 Double Bedroom, 2 Drawing Room) - Four cars
New York to Chicago (13 Double Bedrooms) - Four cars
New York to Chicago (10 Roomette, 5 Double Bedrooms)
Observation Lounge Sleeping Car (4 Double Bedrooms/Buffet)
Dining Service
Pullman Cars only; no coach passengers carried

Comes to a total of 13 cars in the timetable, I suspect extra cars were added when needed, I don't know if they still
operated the train in sections when necessary but I suspect they may have on occasions.
Old passenger timetables are fantastic to look at and review. 60 Years ago the New York Central had some passenger
operation, probably as many passengers as Amtrak carries over their entire system today. Trains all over the place and
many, many of them too. 8 Pages alone of equipment consists.
Again, I urge people reading this to get into collecting timetables, it is facinating beyond belief.
Hope this is helpful.
Noel Weaver

[JJSmith]

Thank you Noel, this is just what I was looking for.

Jeff Smith

[CarterB]

Also interesting that in a 'postwar recession' year of 1948 there were still 10 Drawing Rooms on the train. The 'well heeled' seemed to like the Century!! (no jets yet) As a comparison, what was the consist typically in 1958-1960?

[Noel Weaver]

You didn't specify whether you were interested in 1958, 1959 or 1960 and I have them all so I split the difference, here is
what the timetable from July 12, 1959 shows for the Twentieth Century Limited for this date:
Observation Lounge Sleep Car (Beverages) - 5 Double Bedrooms
Lounge Car (Beverages)
Sleeping cars
4 Comp, 4 Double Bedrooms, Drawing Room
12 Double Bedrooms - Four
10 Roomettes, 6 Double Bedrooms - Three
22 Roomettes - Two
Dining Service
Coaches - Reclining Seats - All Seats Reserved - Porter Service
All equipment operated between New York and Chicago, no more through sleepers to the west coast on the Central by this
time.
This timetable does not state how many coaches were carried on this train but my guess would be maybe two.
Lot less trains by now and six instead of eight pages showing the equipment.
One change that I noticed, no more passenger service to and from Troy, New York and all east/west trains were shown as
making a passenger stop at Albany. In 1948 there were a few that only stopped at Albany for operating purposes and not
to pick up or discharge passengers. Some of the branches still had passenger trains on them.
Again, I urge people who are interested enough to ask these questions to collect timetables, it is a great hobby. The bad
thing about looking at these old timetables is that it takes a while before i can put them away, they are very interesting.
Noel Weaver

[CarterB]

Guess the "well heeled" by then had chosen to fly more. Lots less drawing rooms and compartments, more roomettes and bedrooms, but nevertheless, still an impressive consist. Thanks Noel!!

[Ocala Mike]

The advent of jet travel within the US dates back exactly to the period covered above (1958-1960), hence you are correct about the "well-heeled" and their travel preferences. The 20th Century Limited's consist changed substantially from year to year (month to month?) during this period and later until its demise in 1967.

[John Laubenheimer]

See http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/ptt/ ... t-0948.pdf for the first NYC timetable with (at least some) of the 1948 equipment.

Note that the new equipment trickled in. The 13 double bedroom COUNTY series cars were still listed, since the 12 double bedroom PORT series cars had not yet arrived. The 5 double bedroom observations were listed (HICKORY CREEK & SANDY CREEK), and the 10 roomette-6 double bedroom RIVER series sleepers were listed. Presumably, the lounges LAKE SHORE & ATLANTIC SHORE were being used, as well as the new twin-unit dining cars.

From other listings, the PS 22 roomette BAY series sleepers were on the property; these were not normally assigned to the CENTURY. (Publicity photos of the CENTURY do show 22 roomette cars in the consist, and they probably did show up on occasion; but, never really assigned until the late 1960s. These cars were quite unpopular ... reports indicated poor ride qualities. Roomettes 1,2,19 & 20 were located over the trucks, and roomettes 21 & 22 were right up against the buffers!)

The through cars on AT&SF 19 & 20 (THE CHIEF) were typically AT&SF stock ... the 4-4-2 was stainless and the 10-5 was smooth sided, painted grey (although not the same scheme as NYC.)

[abornstein]

I am detailing Walther's HO heavyweight pullman observation, sleeper, diner and coach cars and would like to know the upholstery color scheme used in the prototype. I already set the diner tables with HO scale photos of table placesettings but now need an ho scale flower vase and flowers. Any information and suggestions welcome. Thanks very much.

[clehman]

Hello - I recently received my order of Walthers 1948 NYC 20th Century Limited passenger cars. I have some questions I cannot find answers to in all my NYC books. 1) Were the car types (10-6, 22-roomette, 4-4-2, etc.) run in any specific order from the front to the end of the train? I read in one of my books that the kitchen/dorm was always to the rear of the diner. I would assume the kitchen end was next to the diner. Are these correct statements? 2) Were the side doors on one end of the cars (with doors) for passenger loading/unloading, all to the front or rear of the train, or did it matter? 3) The lounge, kitchen/dorm, and observation cars each have side doors because they had food/beverage service. The kitchen dorm has side doors on both sides, but the lounge and observation have them on only one side. Were these side doors always on the same side of the train for ease in loading supplies, or did it matter? 4) Was the whole train set of cars turned in New York and Chicago, or did they just swap the location of the RPO and observation cars? Thank you very much for any information you can provide. I want to run my H.O. 20th Century Limited as accurately as possible. Carl

[shlustig]

As to #4, the entire train was turned in both New York and Chicago.

[clehman]

Thank you shlustig. One down and three to go! I really appreciate your help. Carl

[John Laubenheimer]

I'll take a stab at #1-3.

The observation car (obviously) ran vestibule forward. However, 22 roomette cars were rare on the century. I can't find any indications of this car line in timetables until combination with the Commodore Vanderbilt in 1958. At that date, I believe that the Budd-built HARBOR series were more common. The 4-4-2s, 10-6s, 12 bedroom and (I believe the) 22 roomette cars cars all ran vestibule to the rear; although, on occasion, you might see one of the 4-4-2s or 12 bedroom cars vestibule forward. (I only have a diagram of the BUDD-built HARBOR 22 roomette cars, which had a rear vestibule; so, I believe that the BAY cars were similar.) The intention was to point the higher priced accomodations toward the Hudson river for NYGCT departures; operating considerations sometimes took precedence. Where roomettes were present, the intention was that the occupant ride facing forward, which is why the bedrooms are located on the "wrong" side of all NYC 10-6s.

The dining car would operate with the dining room forward, and the kitchen dormitory to the rear (vestibule to the rear). You must place the kitchen end of the KD adjacent to the cabinet space of the dining car, not the waiting area. (The waiting area had windows close to the car end; the cabinet end had no windows. Look at the car ... you'll figure that one out.) The mid-train SHORE lounge car ran adjacent to the dining room. I believe that the SHORE car was intended to run vestibule forward, since there was a general lavatory at the other end of the car, and they wanted this adjacent to the dining room.

As to #4, I believe that shlustig was correct, with a possible exception. The whole train was turned at the end points. But, I believe that the RPO was removed, sent to the adjacent postal track, and returned to the departing consist without being turned. I've seen pictures with this car pointing either way. Mostly, though, the pictures show the car operating (looking like) 1 door/windows/2 doors.

Hope this helps. And, BTW, a complete consist should have at least 3 10-6s, 3-4 12 bedroom cars, and 3 4-4-2s. And, you should (probably) have 2 SANTA FE sleepers (a 10-6 PINE-series and a 4-4-2) behind the RPO.

[clehman]

Mr. Laubenheimer - thank you VERY much for all the detailed information. I really do appreciate you not only telling me which way the vestibule ends should be arranged, but also taking the time to explain why. I will now be able to arrange the vestibules so that the accomodations are all on one side, the Hudson River side. Do you know if there was any specific order to the way the different types of sleepers were arranged in the train? Were the cars with the largest (most expensive) rooms toward the rear of the train so the occupants would be least disturbed by the whistle/horn? As of this date, I do not have as many cars as you mentioned. I purchased two of each of the sleepers, and one of each of the other types offered by Walthers. I do plan on purchasing additional sleepers, and the information you provided tells me which type I need more of. I know of the pool Santa Fe cars running in the Century, although I may purchase a couple, I will probably not run them in the train very often, as I really like the looks of a solid set of matching cars. Too bad the Santa Fe did not allow some of the cars that routinely ran in the Century to be painted two-tone gray! I've seen many photos of passenger cars from one railroad painted in the colors of another railroad because of pool service, but they had their own names on the cars. Thanks again for your help and all the information.

[John Laubenheimer]

Strangely, there's some information on the 1938 Century, but very little on the 1948 Century. A 1938 Century would be laid out as follows:

Railway Post Office
Club/Lounge
(1) 10 Rmt - 5 DBR Sleeper
(2) 17 Rmt Sleeper(s)
(2) 10 Rmt - 5 DBR Sleeper(s)
(1) 4 Cmpt - 4 DBR - 2 DR Sleeper
(2) Dining Cars
(2) 4 Cmpt - 4 DBR - 2 DR Sleeper(s)
(3) 13 DBR Sleeper(s)
(1) Club/Sleeper Observation

A reasonable assumption would be that they kept the car line order intact (or close to it) with the equipment change.

Railway Post Office
(1) 4 Cmpt - 4 DBR - 2 DR Sleeper (to AT&SF #17 or #19 at Chi)
(1) 10 Rmt - 6 DBR Sleeper (to AT&SF #17 or #19 at Chi)
(2-3) 10 Rmt - 6 DBR Sleeper(s)
(2) 4 Cmpt - 4 DBR - 2 DR Sleeper(s)
Club/Lounge
Full Dining Room
Kitchen/Dormitory
(1?) 4 Cmpt - 4 DBR - 2 DR Sleeper
(3-4) 12 DBR Sleeper(s)
(1) Club/Sleeper Observation

Consists vary depending on demand ... the above is a guess.

Just about every picture that I've seen of the rear of the 1948 Century has several 12 DBR cars just ahead of the obs. Usually, you can't tell beyond that, until you get to cars with service doors. There's a video on YouTube of several 1950s era NYC trains passing through Toledo (Century included); but, it's so dark that you can't really tell what's in the consist.

Sorry I can't be more difinitive. The information just isn't out there.