Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

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Statkowski
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Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by Statkowski » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:47 am

The DL&W (and E-L) granted the L&HR rights between Andover and Port Morris, N.J. As L&HR mileage on DL&W/E-L accrued, one can assume that the DL&W/E-L built up mileage they could operate over the L&HR, possibly to Warwick, N.Y.

Could the DL&W/E-L burn off their mileage all the way to Maybrook, N.Y.?
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BR&P
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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by BR&P » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:15 pm

Wow! Since July, and over 900 views, and nobody has put their oar in the water yet? OK, I'll try.

Disclaimer - I am not familiar with the specifics of this arrangement, and am saying the following as a generality. I reserve the right to be wrong. :P

I believe you have a misunderstanding of the term "trackage rights". It means exactly what it says, Railroad B has the right to operate over the tracks of Railroad A between given points. Usually there is a charge for this privilege - it might be based on how many trains, how many cars, how many tons Railroad B moves between those points.

What it is NOT - usually - is a trade. It's very possible Railroad A has no need at all for operating over any part of Railroad B. it's also possible there is a return benefit not related to train miles - let's say at Metropolis Railroad A has a crappy passenger station. Railroad B may have a great station, but their line coming into Metropolis is in terrible condition. The 2 roads might work out a deal whereby Railroad B operates over Railroad A, and once there, both railroads use B's nice station.

You may be confusing this with the balancing of horsepower hours involved when diesel locomotives are pooled, where any imbalance is usually corrected by the same means it accrued, by providing one railroad's locos to the other until things are equalized.

Again, these are speaking in broad terms. There have been times when 2 railroads DO "exchange" trackage rights, using one line from X to Y, and the other's line from Y to Z. Perhaps the L&HR and EL did have something as you describe. But the mere fact that "trackage rights" are granted does not per se indicate reciprocity.

Statkowski
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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by Statkowski » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:10 am

Nope, not misunderstanding trackage rights at all.

We do know that PRR and CNJ both operated occasionally over the L&HR all the way to Maybrook, N.Y. in order to equalize the mileage accrued over the L&HR's operations over their rails. We also know that while the L&HR operated between Andover and Port Morris, N.J. on the D&LW, the D&LW also did likewise between Andover, N.J. and Warwick, N.Y.

What we do not know is whether the DL&W ever operated north of Warwick to Maybrook.

I'm beginning to think it didn't since Warwick to Maybrook was a different crew district, plus the existing DL&W on L&HR and L&HR on DL&W should have equalized everything with little to no leftovers.

Every trackage rights agreement was different, essentially tailored to the environment. Where I live the NYC had trackage rights over portions of the PRR, but there was no reciprocity. The NYC paid the PRR for using their rails, pure and simple. Where they both operated over a jointly-owned railroad, I'm sure each was assessed a certain amount by the jointly-owned railroad, and the bookkeepers straightened everything out in the end.
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BR&P
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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by BR&P » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:23 pm

In that case, I'll fall back on my disclaimer
I am not familiar with the specifics of this arrangement, and am saying the following as a generality. I reserve the right to be wrong. :P
It's territory I'm not "qualified" on and sounds like despite the question, you're better versed on the specifics than I am. Carry on! :-D

Statkowski
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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by Statkowski » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:03 pm

No insult intended, none taken, we're still besties.

What really gets interesting is when Railroad A handles Railroad B's cars under contract, not interchange. One such example that I'm familiar with was the handling of New York City Transit Authority ballast hoppers by the New Haven Railroad between the NYCTA/NH connection at West Farms, Bronx, N.Y. (former New York, Westchester & Boston Railway tracks that the NYCTA took over), which replaced the NYCTA/NH connection at Harlem River, Bronx, N.Y. when the 2nd Avenue El/3rd Avenue El connection was severed.

Anyway, the NYCTA had ballast hoppers, lettered "NYCTA", making them ineligible for interchange service since they didn't have AAR-approved reporting marks. They met ICC-required safety standards. The New Haven hauled the empties eastward to Pine Orchard, Ct. where they were handed off to the Branford Steam Railroad for loading by New Haven Traprock. They returned loaded to the NYCTA. They were never handled as interchanged freight cars, but were handled under a special contract between the New Haven and NYCTA.

You might find other occasions of PRR handling NYC cars to a certain coal tipple owned by Clearfield Bituminous Coal, an NYC company. The PRR would pick up and hand off these cars where the two railroads connected, even though it wasn't a published interchange point. Out here in the Indiana/Clearfield/Cambria/Jefferson County area, there once were B&O, PRR and NYC tracks all overlapping and crossing one another, with B&O and NYC occasionally having trackage rights on PRR tracks (but not too many, if any, examples of PRR having trackage rights on the B&O or NYC).
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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by BR&P » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:25 pm

Statkowski wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:03 pm
Out here in the Indiana/Clearfield/Cambria/Jefferson County area, there once were B&O, PRR and NYC tracks all overlapping and crossing one another, with B&O and NYC occasionally having trackage rights on PRR tracks (but not too many, if any, examples of PRR having trackage rights on the B&O or NYC).
At one time I was making repeated trips to Cumberland to get loco parts. My route took me to Dubois, then down through the coal country to - eventually - Ebensburg. It was just amazing - especially in winter and early spring when the leaves were down - to see so many abandoned and also some active ROW's. It must have been a maze of tracks and to this day I could not draw you an accurate map of who went where down there. I would give so much to be able to see those operations in say, the 1920's or so.

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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by Statkowski » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:02 pm

With historic USGS maps, it definitely helps if you color-code the rail lines. Red for PRR, blue for B&O, black for NYC, and pick-a-color for the Cambria & Indiana, which interchanged with all three at three different locations in two different counties. I guess the CT&D would be red and black since both PRR and NYC each had a half ownership. Then you have to add in dashed, colored lines showing trackage rights. Trust me, the Mahaffey Spagetti Bowl name was appropriate.
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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by ExCon90 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:58 pm

Imagine the fun USRA had in the mid-1970's deciding which trackage should be conveyed to Conrail and which should remain with the estates of the bankrupts and determining who owned what, then filing the necessary paperwork with the individual county seats. A friend of mine who worked on that said they had a terrible time with the lines around Scranton and Wilkes-Barre; this area looks like being in that league.

Statkowski
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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by Statkowski » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:40 pm

Who owned what when, and what did each eventually become can indeed be a daunting task. For the New York Central Railroad, on their Pennsylvania Division you had not only the Beech Creek Railroad, which the New York Central leased, and the Beech Creek Extension Railroad, which the New York Central owned.

For a simple coal train running from Clymer, Pa. (Indiana County) to Keating, Pa. (Clinton County), here's the most recent update of who originally owned what from Clymer to Keating (RJ Corman's portion):

* Clymer to McKeague's - Cherry Tree & Dixonville RR. [Note 1]
* McKeague's to Block Limit Station "CJ" - Cambria & Clearfield RR (Susquehanna Extension Branch). Transferred to Cherry Tree & Dixonville RR upon its completion. [Note 2]
* Block Limit Station "CJ" to Clearfield/Indiana County Line - Cambria & Clearfield RR (Susquehanna Extension Branch). Built new for Pittsburgh & Eastern RR access to Cherry Tree & Dixonville RR. [Note 2]
* Clearfield/Indiana County Line to Dowler Junction - Pittsburg & Eastern RR (Cherry Tree Branch). [Note 3]
* Dowler Junction to Block Station "WJ" - Pittsburgh & Eastern RR. [Note 3]
* Block Station "WJ" to Curry Run - Beech Creek RR. [Note 4]
* Curry Run to CB Junction - Curwensville & Bower RR. [Note 5]
* CB Junction to BR&P Junction - Clearfield & Mahoning RR. BR&P Junction was renamed B&O Junction following the B&O takeover of the BR&P. [Note 6]
* BR&P Junction to Block Station "WB" - Beech Creek RR. [Note 4]
* Block Station "WB" to Karthaus - West Branch Valley RR. [Note 7]
* Karthaus to Keating Jct. - Karthaus RR. Originally a PRR company, sold to NYC's Beech Creek Extension RR. [Note 8]

Note 1 - Cherry Tree & Dixonville RR was a jointly-owned NYC/PRR company. Built by the Pennsylvania RR (reimbursed 50% by the New York Central RR). Merged into Penn Central RR in 1971, some three years after the Pennsylvania RR/New York Central RR merger. Both railroads ran their own trains over the joint trackage. Maintained and dispatched by the New York Central RR (reimbursed 50% by the Pennsylvania RR).
Note 2 - Cambria & Clearfield RR was a PRR company, eventually merged into the PRR. Extended northward to Cherry Tree circa 1884.
Note 3 - Pittsburg & Eastern RR was a NYC company under its Beech Creek Extension RR umbrella, eventually merged into the NYC. Arrived Cherry Tree circa 1905 to access the newly-built, jointly-owned/operated Cherry Tree & Dixonville RR.
Note 4 - Beech Creek RR was leased by the NYC, eventually merged into the NYC.
Note 5 - Curwensville & Bower RR was a NYC company under its Beech Creek Extension RR umbrella, eventually merged into the NYC.
Note 6 - Clearfield & Mahoning RR was a BR&P company, eventually merged into the B&O.
Note 7 - West Branch Valley RR was a NYC company under its Beech Creek Extension RR umbrella, eventually merged into the NYC. Built to connect Clearfield, Pa. with its newly-purchased Karthaus RR.
Note 8 - Karthaus RR was a PRR company under its Philadelphia & Erie RR umbrella, sold to Beech Creek Extension RR.

Some of the mergers are speculation on my part, but in the end, that's who ended up controlling that particular stretch of track.

Of course, the New York Central and Pennsylvania lines became Penn Central lines, which became Conrail lines, which became part of RJ Corman's Pennsylvania Line.

And I think the Indiana County Tax Office still has a plot of land next to the rail line coming through Cherry Tree (that R.J. Corman RR didn't pick up) still labeled as being owned by Conrail.
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BR&P
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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by BR&P » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:00 pm

Good grief, what a nightmare, especially for the bean counters. Another factor adding to the chaos at any given time would be - if the NYC/PRR was anything like the BR&P/B&O - some of those early companies continued to exist on paper for decades after they were operationally taken over by the "big guys". For example, the B&O took over operation and ownership of the BR&P in 1932. But on paper, the BR&P existed ( and technically owned the tracks) until very recently - without bothering to look it up I'd say maybe the 1990's.

It's ALMOST enough to make me feel sorry for the tax assessors charged with collecting on those lines! :wink:

Statkowski
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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by Statkowski » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:12 am

The Cherry Tree & Dixonville RR was jointly owned, 50/50, by the PRR and NYC. Had its own, separate ETT. Both railroads operated over it; it had no motive power or cars of its own.

The PRR & NYC merged in 1967 and became PC. The CT&D, however, although jointly owned, didn't merge into PC until 1971.
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BR&P
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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by BR&P » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:04 am

I was going to post a little present for you, 2 pics of Cherry Tree yard, but can't find what box they're in. Besides, this is technically the EL forum! :wink:

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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by charlie6017 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:36 pm

BR&P wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:04 am
I was going to post a little present for you, 2 pics of Cherry Tree yard, but can't find what box they're in. Besides, this is technically the EL forum! :wink:
Heck, post them anyway! I would love to see them. I always thought the Pennsylvania coal ops were interesting! :-D
~Charlie Ricker

Statkowski
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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by Statkowski » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:20 pm

New York Central coal ops weren't anything to sneer at, either. For a while there were some Class NE-2 2-6-6-2s stationed in Cherry Tree, Pa. to serve as pushers for the downhill run to Mahaffey, Pa. Yes, I did say "downhill." Many, many wheels on the coal trains + many, many curves following the river = much, much resistance requiring a pusher. Oh, an L-1 4-8-2 on the point. Nothing bigger than an H-5 2-8-2 on the branches.
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BR&P
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Re: Trackage Rights/Burning off Mileage

Post by BR&P » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:04 pm

charlie6017 wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:36 pm
Heck, post them anyway! I would love to see them. I always thought the Pennsylvania coal ops were interesting! :-D
Charlie, I gotta FIND them first! :P No small task, plus I'm going out of town in a couple days, for a couple weeks. So that will have to wait till November at the earliest.
Statkowski wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:20 pm
New York Central coal ops weren't anything to sneer at, either.
Is there any good source for pics of that area back then, a book maybe, or local library?

And if somebody wants to contact an Admin and have this spun off to a separate thread either in the PA railfan or in the NYC section, that's fine with me, just leave a post saying where it was moved to. I think this topic could develop legs of its own in the proper location.

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