D&H RS11 Question

[erielackawanna]

Some questions regarding the following engine.

http://freericks.rrpicturearchives.net/ ... ?id=960069


Why did New York Central refuse delivery of the high nose RS-11s that were
eventually sold to D&H?

When were these units retired by CP Rail?

Anyone know where they were cut up?

[LCJ]

I was told that NYC was not pleased with the performance of previous RS11 units, and decided they didn't want any more of them.

[scottychaos]

The six units were D&H 5000-5005, all ordered by the NYC and refused..they were built with NYC lightning stripes, rare for Alco hood units. they sat for a year or so until bought by the D&H.
All of the D&H high-hood RS11's were the NYC units..the rest of the D&H RS11's were low hood.

They were built as NYC 8009-8014

The story I read is that someone from the NYC placed the order with Alco, but the order was never "official" and NYC refused the units when they were completed..
(im sure someone else has more details than that!

Not many D&H RS11's were still running by the time CP came on the scene (early 90's) They last operated in 1993..(there was a story somewhere that one RS11 might have operated in 1994 on the D&H, but I dont know if that was proven or not.) basically 1993 was the end of the Alco era on the D&H.

At least one of the six NYC units still survived into 1994,
I caught 5002 in late '93.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40613

Im not sure when 5002 was scrapped, but it was probably '94 or '95.

Only two D&H RS11's survive today, and neither is one of the NYC units.

http://www.joshuakblay.com/dhsurvivors.html

I dont really think CP can be blamed for the demise of the D&H Alcos..their time was up anyway..all the C420's were gone around 1987-88, and only a few straggler RS11's and RS36's were still on the scene when CP took over the D&H..so IMO it wasnt so much CP that killed the D&H Alcos, it was just that their time was finally up.

Scot

[erielackawanna]

Thanks, LCJ and Scot!

[Bob Sandusky]

The story I read is that someone from the NYC placed the order with Alco, but the order was never "official" and NYC refused the units when they were completed..
(im sure someone else has more details than that!

story was related to the Baldwin RF-16 Sharks not the RS-11s.

[scottychaos]

The story I read is that someone from the NYC placed the order with Alco, but the order was never "official" and NYC refused the units when they were completed..
(im sure someone else has more details than that!

story was related to the Baldwin RF-16 Sharks not the RS-11s.

hmmm..no, not really.
Maybe some NYC Sharks had a similar story, I dont know about that,
but im definitely talking about the RS11's! not Sharks.

The RS11's were definitely built and painted up in NYC Lightning stripes by Alco..photos exist. And they were then definitely refused by NYC, thats also a known fact..The exact details around the ordering and refusal might be in doubt right now, but its something along the lines of what I posted above...

actually "The exact details around the ordering and refusal" ARE known!
I have read it before..somewhere...no one on this thread has posted the exact story here yet though...but thats not the same thing as "no one knows"..the details are known, they just haven't been found and posted in this thread yet.

Scot

[erielackawanna]

The confusion may lie in the fact that the RF16s were former New York Central (and then Monangahela) units.

D&H never had any new RF16s.

I had also heard that the RS11s were delivered to NYC and refused. I think this was true of all the high-nosed RS11s on D&H.

[umtrr-author]

Page 37 of David Sweetland's book "New York Central Lightning Stripes" has a photo of NYC 8001, an RS-11 in black without lightning stripes.

Included in the caption is the text, "One other group of RS-11's was built for the NYC based on a verbal request, but they were never approved by the board and were resold to the D&H."

On Page 4 of Sweetland's "New York Central Lightning Stripes Volume 2," this is reiterated: "Six more RS-11's (8009-8014) were assembled in 1960 as the final lightning stripe units, but they were never accepted by the NYC."

Pages 86 and 87 of Sweetland's book "The Delaware and Hudson in Color" has photos of the RS-11s in NYC Lightning Stripe paint. "These engines waited at the remains of the Selkirk roundhouse for almost twelve months before being resold to the D&H," Sweetland reported.

[erielackawanna]

George,

Thanks so much for finding all of this. Did any of those references say why ALCO went ahead and built them without board approval? Seems like something that a business would never do. (All my jobs, I've always had to get signed contracts from companies we were doing business with before moving ahead on a project.)

Charles

[Kuyahoora Valley]

John Kirkland's book, The Diesel Builders, Volume 2 (ALCO) also states, on page 156:

" Late in the course of this production, a verbal commitment was received from New York Central for six locomotives. ALCO assigned to this commitment model RS-11s that were being built for stock at this time and unsold. Road Numbers 8009-8011 were assigned to three units being built on order S3319, identified by c/n's 83504-83506 and numbers 8012-8014 were assigned to three units being built on order S3321, identified by c/n's 83534-83536. These units were completed between March 24 and 31, 1960, and delivered to the railroad.

Shortly after delivery was made, it was determined that an AFE (Authority for Execution) for this comittment had never been authorized. The locomotives were placed in a stored status and subsequently returned to ALCO.

All six units were ultimately purchased by the Delaware and Hudson, renumbered 5000-5005 and delivered to the railroad between January 31 and February 17, 1961. While photographs of these locomotives as originally lettered and numbered exist, as far as New York Central was concerned they were nonentities."

[deezlfan]

There is a story about the arrival of the RF-16s that involved them being refused by some uninformed employee. Seems the higher-ups traded an equal amount of RR scrap [ possibly boxcars?] in exchange for the RF-16s. When the Baldwins showed up in interchange, no one could believe where they were consigned. Guess they sat around the yard for awhile until word arrived that they were indeed supposed to be sent on to Colonie. Can't locate the source right this second, but I have read it in one of my Bulletins or D&H themed books.

[umtrr-author]

George,

Thanks so much for finding all of this. Did any of those references say why ALCO went ahead and built them without board approval? Seems like something that a business would never do. (All my jobs, I've always had to get signed contracts from companies we were doing business with before moving ahead on a project.)

Charles

Charles, happy to help when I can occassionally be useful around here!

The Sweetland books don't go any farther than the high level report. The reference to Kirkland's book (two posts above) seems to shed more light on the subject than what David Sweetland had.

My guess would have been that someone thought there was a contract, or thought there was one forthcoming, when there wasn't. ALCo had done a lot of business with NYC in the past, so "done with a handshake and paperwork later" would not be that far of a stretch. ALCo building the locos for stock, as moentioned above, makes more sense, though.

[LCJ]

ALCo building the locos for stock, as mentioned above, makes more sense, though.

They had to pay the union workers, anyway -- so why not keep them busy?

The big three auto makers used to "build for stock" most of the time in that time period. Having a 90 day supply on hand was not unusual for them. Erecting a handful of diesel-electrics (as crappy as they were, IMHO) that were "as good as sold" fits the pattern.

I'm not sure of this -- but I believe Central ordered the RS32s not too long after this episode. They were a better unit, with 26L brake schedule. I liked them better, anyway.

[Matt Langworthy]

I'm not sure of this -- but I believe Central ordered the RS32s not too long after this episode. They were a better unit, with 26L brake schedule. I liked them better, anyway.

Yes, NYC did order a batch of RS32s in 1961. They were initially used on intermodal trains but were bumped to manifest freights and other jobs after more powerful engines like the GP35 showed up.