SEPTA subway and el rolling stock.

[3rdavenueEL]

What is the schedule (if any exists) for the replacement of Philadelphia's subway and el cars? Are they always bought from the same manufacturer? When were they last replaced? The el cars look sort of strange to me with those whacky looking roof tops. Are the subway cars air-conditioned? I am not a regular user of those systems and haven't ridden on the subway since the last 1980's.

[BuddCar711]

What is the schedule (if any exists) for the replacement of Philadelphia's subway and el cars? Are they always bought from the same manufacturer? When were they last replaced? The el cars look sort of strange to me with those whacky looking roof tops. Are the subway cars air-conditioned? I am not a regular user of those systems and haven't ridden on the subway since the last 1980's.

I assume the "wacky roof tops" you're referring to are from the Budd Almond Joys (M-3, 1960). They were retired and replaced by that junk built by Adtranz (M-4, 1998) in 1999, and I don't know when the M-5s will be ordered (should be soon since the M-4s are falling apart as we speak). The M-3s aren't (or weren't) air-conditioned (with the exception of car 614). The M-4s are A.C.'ed.

Now onto the Broad Street Subway. The North Broad Cars (B-I, Brill 1926), The South Broad Cars (B-II or B-III, if you go by year built over year acquired, Pressed Steel 1938) and The Bridge cars (B-II or B-III, again if you go by year built over year acquired, Brill 1936, acquired 1969) were replaced in 1983 by the B-IV cars built by Kawasaki. So far, there is no immediate consideration for replacement because they are doing an "upgrade-as-you-go" concept (the latest upgrade, IGBTs in place of the original GE cam controllers, and automated announcments), with the next upgrade would be either LED marker lights or digital destination signs. The B-I, B-II, and B-III were not air conditioned, the B-IV are. So far, there has been been only one repeat manufaturer (Kawasaki doesn't count because the K-Cars and B-IVs are under different ownerships, with SEPTA owning the K-Cars and the City owning the B-IVs). The list of railcars owned by SEPTA are as follows:

General Electric-Silverliner IV 1974-1977

Kawasaki-Single-ended City and Double-ended Suburban LRVs (K-Cars) 1980-81

Bombardier-Push/Pull units 1987 and 1999 (separate orders)

ABB-Adtranz-N-5 Norristown LRVs, 1989-1995, M-4 Market-Frankford cars, 1998-1999

Pullman Standard-Push/Pull units, built in 1970, acquired in 2008

Hyundai-Rotem-Silverliner V, 2010-2012


City Owned Railcars

Kawasaki-B-IV, 1983

[lefty]

Last I heard you had at least 15 more years on the M4's.

Lefty.

[tommyboy6181]

Last I heard you had at least 15 more years on the M4's.

Lefty.

The M4 cars are designed to last about 30-35 years. They could use maybe a SMS (scheduled maintenance service) where select components are replaced or rehabbed, but by no means need to be junked at this point. Plus AC motors, which the M4 cars have are designed to last much longer than their DC counterparts. Only thing I can see being upgraded on those if anything is going from GTO to IGBT based inverters. That would be inexpensive but provide a little more efficiency.

[R36 Combine Coach]

The M3s lasted 39 years, so if any indication the M4s should last just as long.

[jayo]

The M3s lasted 39 years, so if any indication the M4s should last just as long.

Probably longer! And I do not believe the M4's are falling apart, they might have when they entered service, but that's to be expected. The M-5's probably won't be ordered for a long time, as the M-4's are still full of life! I think SEPTA may want to focus more on replacing the K cars, since they are not accessible. How they were able to install LED signage in those cars without being caught for not making them accessible sorta baffles me.

I suspect that SEPTA's in a similar dilemma that the TTC was in, having cars that are inaccessible, and the design not adapted any elsewhere, making them more costly to maintain. Looks like SEPTA is looking to replace them just the same.

I'd be interested in seeing the BSL B-4's get LED signage, they could really benefit from it!

[Patrick Boylan]

Youth is wasted on the young. You wippersnappers and your newfangled LED's. When I was your age all we had was yellow marker lights for locals, green for expresses, red for Ridge Ave locals, white for specials and we were GLAD to have that. Uphill in both directions.
Or was that yellow for expresses, green for ...

[M&Eman]

Given the Broad St. cars' age, you'd think a replacement would be coming up soon. Those things remind me of the R-32s in New York.

[tommyboy6181]

They probably still have up to another 15 years. Those cars came online back in the early 1980's. Plus, the propulsion controls were just updated in the past 2 years by switching from GE cam control to IGBT controls from Vossloh. That's how those cars ended up with the whine noise you hear now. Now, they're being updated on the outside as well.

[tommyboy6181]

Youth is wasted on the young. You wippersnappers and your newfangled LED's. When I was your age all we had was yellow marker lights for locals, green for expresses, red for Ridge Ave locals, white for specials and we were GLAD to have that. Uphill in both directions.
Or was that yellow for expresses, green for ...

It's ADA compliance that brought about the newer LED screens and that type of new technology. That was mandated by the federal government. Other cities such as NYC, Boston, Washington, Atlanta have already upgraded to this on new or rebuilt fleets, because they are required to. San Francisco is adding this to their new fleet being built that will come online in the next few years. Now, what the agencies add (such as FIND screens) are optional. But, the announcements, door indicators, chimes, destinaton signs (interior and exterior) are required.

[4400Washboard]

Current Rolling Stock:

Subway-

Market-Frankford Line: ADtranz M-4
Broad Street Line: KawasakI B-IV
Norristown Line: ABB N-5

Regional Rail-

Avco/GE Silverliner IV
Hyundai Rotem Silverliner V
ABB ALP-44
EMD AEM-7
Bombardier SEPTA I
Bombardier SEPTA II
Pullman Comet I (Pending/In Storage)

[jackintosh11]

The comet 1s aren't going to come out of storage. There's no need.

[SCB2525]

The M4s are the loudest, jerkiest, worst riding pieces of junk I've ever ridden on. Its almost like they have no sprung suspension to speak of and their brakes are rubbing out of round at all times. That said, I know SEPTA couldn't justify replacing them; I just hope to god they try to overhaul them with better trucks and controls.

The BIVs are comparatively an absolute dream, and CWR on the BSL makes it even dreamier. I want them to stay a good long time.

[sammy2009]

The M3s lasted 39 years, so if any indication the M4s should last just as long.

Probably longer! And I do not believe the M4's are falling apart, they might have when they entered service, but that's to be expected. The M-5's probably won't be ordered for a long time, as the M-4's are still full of life! I think SEPTA may want to focus more on replacing the K cars, since they are not accessible. How they were able to install LED signage in those cars without being caught for not making them accessible sorta baffles me.

I suspect that SEPTA's in a similar dilemma that the TTC was in, having cars that are inaccessible, and the design not adapted any elsewhere, making them more costly to maintain. Looks like SEPTA is looking to replace them just the same.

I'd be interested in seeing the BSL B-4's get LED signage, they could really benefit from it!

I suspect the reason the k-cars are Inacessible is because all of that would have really taken money to put a wheelchair lift somewhere and tear the trolley apart and that cost for that would have been a mess and besides the trolley stops in the subway doesn't even have elevators except for 13th, and 30th sts. Ofcourse it was cheaper to install LED SIGNS , Stop Announement system.
The K-Cars will be REPLACED SOON...The EL ,and BSL is not even on the table for replacement yet. Trust me. SEPTA is going to use them until they are no more. They want their money worth lol

[MACTRAXX]

What is the schedule (if any exists) for the replacement of Philadelphia's subway and el cars? Are they always bought from the same manufacturer? When were they last replaced? The el cars look sort of strange to me with those whacky looking roof tops. Are the subway cars air-conditioned? I am not a regular user of those systems and haven't ridden on the subway since the last 1980's.

I assume the "wacky roof tops" you're referring to are from the Budd Almond Joys (M-3, 1960). They were retired and replaced by that junk built by Adtranz (M-4, 1998) in 1999, and I don't know when the M-5s will be ordered (should be soon since the M-4s are falling apart as we speak). The M-3s aren't (or weren't) air-conditioned (with the exception of car 614). The M-4s are A.C.'ed.

Now onto the Broad Street Subway. The North Broad Cars (B-I, Brill 1926), The South Broad Cars (B-II or B-III, if you go by year built over year acquired, Pressed Steel 1938) and The Bridge cars (B-II or B-III, again if you go by year built over year acquired, Brill 1936, acquired 1969) were replaced in 1983 by the B-IV cars built by Kawasaki. So far, there is no immediate consideration for replacement because they are doing an "upgrade-as-you-go" concept (the latest upgrade, IGBTs in place of the original GE cam controllers, and automated announcments), with the next upgrade would be either LED marker lights or digital destination signs. The B-I, B-II, and B-III were not air conditioned, the B-IV are. So far, there has been been only one repeat manufaturer (Kawasaki doesn't count because the K-Cars and B-IVs are under different ownerships, with SEPTA owning the K-Cars and the City owning the B-IVs). The list of railcars owned by SEPTA are as follows:

General Electric-Silverliner IV 1974-1977

Kawasaki-Single-ended City and Double-ended Suburban LRVs (K-Cars) 1980-81

Bombardier-Push/Pull units 1987 and 1999 (separate orders)

ABB-Adtranz-N-5 Norristown LRVs, 1989-1995, M-4 Market-Frankford cars, 1998-1999

Pullman Standard-Push/Pull units, built in 1970, acquired in 2008

Hyundai-Rotem-Silverliner V, 2010-2012


City Owned Railcars

Kawasaki-B-IV, 1983

711: All of the information that you posted on SEPTA's current rolling stock is correct except for one
small addition: The current BSL cars began delivery in the Fall of 1982 - I remember when the first trains
entered service SEPTA made public the schedule that the first new B4 trains operated on after they were
fully tested and cleared for service...With the advanced age of what was left of the previous fleet these
then-new cars could not go into service quick enough...These cars have held up well and with a complete
future overhaul these cars could serve 15-20 more years...

MACTRAXX