When will Philly get new trolleys?

[Patrick Boylan]

Please elaborate, what is it about street running that makes high level platforms problematic? Los Angeles area has had high platform street running in Long Beach since 1990, NJT's Riverline has had street running with medium platforms since 2004. What are the problems street running caused for their platforms?
Pittsburgh has had street running with a single low level door on otherwise high level cars since the mid 1980's.

[M&Eman]

The lack of K-Car ADA compliance is a feature, not a defect and SEPTA should hang on to them as long as possible. Once public transit begins to cater to the needs of the disabled it degrades service to the point where only the disabled use it. It's why bus service in this country has become completely useless (not that I'm a fan of buses, just hate to see trolleys suffer the same fate).

I think that is an unnecessary exaggeration of the effects of ADA legislation. Would you say high-level platforms at RR stations only benefit the disabled? Yes Wheelchair lifts are a pain, but there is no reason wheel-on wheel-off wheelchair accessibility via level boarding platforms cannot be implemented. Look at the Newark Light Rail, or the MBTA's Green Line, or any of the new build light rail systems, such as HBLR, LA, etc. Level boarding benefits lots of people since it speeds up boarding, hence potential run times.

Also, imagine how what you said sounds to someone who is disabled. Do you propose they just stay indoors and out of view?

[R36 Combine Coach]

The lack of K-Car ADA compliance is a feature, not a defect and SEPTA should hang on to them as long as possible. Once public transit begins to cater to the needs of the disabled it degrades service to the point where only the disabled use it. It's why bus service in this country has become completely useless (not that I'm a fan of buses, just hate to see trolleys suffer the same fate).

I think that is an unnecessary exaggeration of the effects of ADA legislation. Would you say high-level platforms at RR stations only benefit the disabled? Yes Wheelchair lifts are a pain, but there is no reason wheel-on wheel-off wheelchair accessibility via level boarding platforms cannot be implemented. Look at the Newark Light Rail, or the MBTA's Green Line, or any of the new build light rail systems, such as HBLR, LA, etc. Level boarding benefits lots of people since it speeds up boarding, hence potential run times.

What Jersey Mike said here is slippery slope/strawman. Does it mean that once buses (or trains) start carrying numbers of disabled passengers, non-disabled folks will drive instead? There is no logic to back this and it seems out of the mind.

[Myrtone]

Both the Media & Sharon Hill lines have some street running-along Orange St. (& on a single track at that) in Media for the 101, & in Aldan for the 102. So, any conversion to all high platforms for the ex-Red Arrow lines would be problematic.

But the street running sections of the interurban lines are only short, aren't they? And stops are further apart than on the suburban lines.

EDIT:

I think that is an unnecessary exaggeration of the effects of ADA legislation. Would you say high-level platforms at RR stations only benefit the disabled? Yes Wheelchair lifts are a pain, but there is no reason wheel-on wheel-off wheelchair accessibility via level boarding platforms cannot be implemented. Look at the Newark Light Rail, or the MBTA's Green Line, or any of the new build light rail systems, such as HBLR, LA, etc. Level boarding benefits lots of people since it speeds up boarding, hence potential run times.

Level boaring also makes it easier to accomodate bicycles, if people can access stops by bike, instead of on foot, then there is a considerable potential for stop consolidaiton.

[CComMack]

The lack of K-Car ADA compliance is a feature, not a defect and SEPTA should hang on to them as long as possible. Once public transit begins to cater to the needs of the disabled it degrades service to the point where only the disabled use it. It's why bus service in this country has become completely useless (not that I'm a fan of buses, just hate to see trolleys suffer the same fate).

Thinking that service has degraded due to ADA restrictions is one thing, but I think calling lack of compliance "a feature" is beyond the pale.

Low-floor trolleys (and buses) with simple foldout ramps/bridgeplates are a superior solution to the ADA problem than chair lifts and high floors, as the PCC-IIs on the 15 so painfully demonstrate. Low floors have the added benefit of speeding up boarding for everyone. As venerable and reliable as the K-cars are, I'm looking forward to their successors, and the shortening of travel times they will bring with them, in both city and suburbs.

Please elaborate, what is it about street running that makes high level platforms problematic?

State Street in Media is single tracked; a trolley runs down the middle of the street and oncoming cars pull over to let it pass, and then it stops in the middle of the street just beyond Orange St. (which is a very low-traffic block), changes ends, and heads back down the middle of the street towards Providence Road and 69th St. There is no room to place fixed structures like platforms adjacent to the track, because that would be smack in the middle of the car traffic lane on either side. Reconfigurations would require removal of all street parking on the length of State Street at a minimum, which is a political non-starter for the main business drag of Media; it would degrade the pedestrian environment as well as choke off the scarce parking supply. (It's also been long enough that I don't remember for certain that there is street parking the full length of both sides of the street; it wouldn't surprise me if there were sidewalk bulbs or other interruptions of the parking lane.)

But the street running sections of the interurban lines are only short, aren't they? And stops are further apart than on the suburban lines.

If you are under the impression that there are "interurban lines" with street-running that are separate and distinct from the "suburban lines", then... well, I don't know what to say to that. If you just goofed and meant "city lines" instead of suburban, that's much more forgivable, but your point is still meaningless; the street-running segments are some of the most important on the whole line, and can't be removed or engineered around.

[Patrick Boylan]

Thanks for explaining some misgivings on State St Media street running high level platforms. But since you're not the poster who first mentioned it, I expect to read other reasons when MichaelBug replies
Alas, I can't agree that State St's Media's main business drag. The automobile rules, and I believe that has made Baltimore Pike, 1 block away, get more businesses than State St.
I agree that it's probably not politically palatable further to restrict automobiles. Although they didn't do it long term, or often, or recently, Media had once in a while closed State St to automobile traffic for weeks at a time some summers, and promoted the 'trolley mall'. The last time I remember them doing it the centerpiece, at least in my mind, was free shuttle rides on a 1920's vintage 'center door' trolley. They haven't been on the property since the early 1980's, and I don't know for sure that Media's repeated any long running automobile bans.
Are you sure you can call State St one of the most important segments? It's the end of the line, frequently gets bustituted for snowfall, and doesn't seem to me to have many passengers.
The 102 Sharon Hill line's street running I'd count as one of the important segments. It's a couple of miles from the end of the line, so SEPTA would have to cut the line back a lot in order to eliminate that stretch. But it's double track on a wide street.

In myrtone's defense I believe he lives in Australia, so might not know as much about local terms as Philuffians like you and me.

[chuchubob]

State Street, Media

[Myrtone]

Low-floor trolleys (and buses) with simple foldout ramps/bridgeplates are a superior solution to the ADA problem than chair lifts and high floors, as the PCC-IIs on the 15 so painfully demonstrate. Low floors have the added benefit of speeding up boarding for everyone. As venerable and reliable as the K-cars are, I'm looking forward to their successors, and the shortening of travel times they will bring with them, in both city and suburbs.

Level boarding to high floor is just as effective with all the same advantages as low floor, but there are space constraints on provding high platforms so this is best soutied to vehicles that dwell at fixed stations. Low floors vehicles are well suited to stopping on demand at more frequent stops.

In myrtone's defense I believe he lives in Australia, so might not know as much about local terms as Philuffians like you and me.

Thankyou for thoso photos, but in the Media one I do see a car park entrance on the left side, I don't find it hard to forget haw little I know the local terms, and while so widespread, I started to wonder whether street parking is such a great idea, we've had parking garages for a very long time, autostackers have been aruond since the early 1960s.

Also note shows some old kerbside running.

I get the impression that Philladelphia's trolley system is disjointed.

EDIT:
offset running on route 6.

[Patrick Boylan]

In myrtone's defense I believe he lives in Australia, so might not know as much about local terms as Philuffians like you and me.

Thankyou for thoso photos

nope, not my photos. you should thank Bob the Choo Choo.

Also note shows some old kerbside running.

I take 2nd place in the foaming railfan category to noone, so I had little problem enjoying that video, but where did you see curbside running? The closest I can figure is around http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTklTjrr ... =1#t=0m45s, that's 45 seconds into the video, route 26 Oxford Ave side of the road running IN THE GRASS. That still rural in the 1950's part of Philadelphia does not seem to have many curbs, or even sidewalks.

I get the impression that Philladelphia's trolley system is disjointed.

Please to explain, what's disjointed mean?

offset running on route 6.

Once again, it's certainly a fun video to watch, it's the suburban portion of rt 6, which got bustituted before I was born in 19.., and has street running, side of the road, center of the road and private right of way as any good trolley line should, but what's that have to do with the discussion we're having now about Philly getting new trolleys? And what's 'offset running' mean?

By the way, if we're going to talk about quirky alignments, I get a kick out of Baltimore's. At Camden Yards station the 2 track line's on the left side of Howard St. As it travels north its reserved right of way changes to center of the street, then essentially left side of the street again by taking over what would have been the southbound auto lanes, then next block the northbound track goes to the right of the northbound auto lane, then crosses back to the left side again, after about 3-5 blocks of running on the left side of the now one-way northbound auto lanes the light rail becomes center of the street again, for the northernmost 3 or so blocks it moves to the right of the street before heading to private right of way.

[Myrtone]

Once again, it's certainly a fun video to watch, it's the suburban portion of rt 6, which got bustituted before I was born in 19.., and has street running, side of the road, center of the road and private right of way as any good trolley line should, but what's that have to do with the discussion we're having now about Philly getting new trolleys? And what's 'offset running' mean?

Well, speaking of Bustitution.

[loufah]

Alas, I can't agree that State St's Media's main business drag. The automobile rules, and I believe that has made Baltimore Pike, 1 block away, get more businesses than State St.

Baltimore Ave has fewer, larger merchants, most with their own parking lots. Most of the north side of one block is taken up by a parking garage. State Street is wall-to-wall small shops and restaurants with only occasional larger buildings and off-street parking. I suspect that, among Media residents, far more spend time along State Street than along Baltimore Ave.

Cars can (and do) park along both sides of State Street. Cars cannot fit between parked cars and the trolley, although plenty of drivers try to do so.

Taking away sidewalk or street space and building mini-high platforms probably wouldn't be acceptable to the residents.

[Myrtone]

In Diesels and Dollars, I hear one example after another where diesel buses are supposedly better, most of which I don't agree that it's better. And for every example given, there seem to be a countr-example where motorbuses either make life more difficult for pedestrians and/or PT users, are less easy, or are less well off in some other way.

[trackwelder]

note how in the opening credits it's stated "produced by general motors"