Railroad Forums 

  • History of the Broad Street Line

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

 #746363  by KAWASAKI-FAN100
 
NortheastTrainMan wrote:
lefty wrote:
Red Arrow Fan wrote:

Why would they care?
Likely to stop people from attempting to photograph or video them.
I can understand that. But I'm kinda suprised that SEPTA is more scared of terrorists than NYC. When two men took pictures of the subway they ended up in the newspaper. Also I find almost no "railfan window" videos on youtube on the BSL, but I find plenty on the New York City subway.

http://cbs3.com/local/SEPTA.Broad.Street.2.1206878.html

Also one more thing. I'm sorry if I sound picky but there's no such thing as "Was" when talking about plural things, like "Why was the track installed" It's why were the tracks installed. Or the tracks "Was" installed, it's the tracks were installed.
Thanks for the correction.
Last edited by KAWASAKI-FAN100 on Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #746365  by Mdlbigcat
 
KAWASAKI-FAN100 wrote:
redarrow5591 wrote:
NortheastTrainMan wrote:There isn't any operational benefit. But I was just wondering if it ever happened. Also I knew that the north side of the BSL had 4 tracks.
(definitely since 2 and 3 was installed in '91).
Which brings up my question. Why was express tracks between Erie and Olney installed in '91 when the subway was built over 50 years ago?
When the subway was built, it was built with the 4-track right of way between Olney and Walnut, but used only the two local tracks [ Express tracks existed between Girard and Walnut-Locust but they were rarely used.]. In 1959, Express tracks were installed between Erie and Girard and Express train service was introduced. This was done to induce increased ridership on the BSL. it worked briefly, but ridership on the BSL declined through the 1960's as the demographics of the neighborhood served by the subway changed, and the safety reputation of the BSL deteriorated [crime].

In the late 70's as the BSL equipment went downhill, the Express service and the Ridge spur were sacrificed to keep the locals running. In 1980, the Ridge Spur was closed due to the construction of the Center City Commuter Tunnel. In 1983, limited express service was restarted, as more K-cars came on line, the Express was expanded, and the Ridge spur was reinstated.

In 1990/91, as part of the "Railworks" project, express tracks were installed between Erie and Olney [and the Fern Rock Transp. Ctr. Station was constructed] as the BSL was to take on an increased load of passengers as RR passengers were diverted to the Subway. SEPTA did an incredible job handling the BSL's increased load using almost all of the available car
fleet [about 110 out of 125 cars].
 #746376  by Matthew Mitchell
 
Note the loop at Fern Rock wasn't put in until the winter of 93-94, IIRC. It made a big difference in reliability of the service during the railroad shutdown. And I'll second Mdl's assessment of how the subway performed those two summers.
 #746986  by NortheastTrainMan
 
Which brings up my question. Why was express tracks between Erie and Olney installed in '91 when the subway was built over 50 years ago?

When the subway was built, it was built with the 4-track right of way between Olney and Walnut, but used only the two local tracks [ Express tracks existed between Girard and Walnut-Locust but they were rarely used.]. In 1959, Express tracks were installed between Erie and Girard and Express train service was introduced. This was done to induce increased ridership on the BSL. it worked briefly, but ridership on the BSL declined through the 1960's as the demographics of the neighborhood served by the subway changed, and the safety reputation of the BSL deteriorated [crime].

In the late 70's as the BSL equipment went downhill, the Express service and the Ridge spur were sacrificed to keep the locals running. In 1980, the Ridge Spur was closed due to the construction of the Center City Commuter Tunnel. In 1983, limited express service was restarted, as more K-cars came on line, the Express was expanded, and the Ridge spur was reinstated.

In 1990/91, as part of the "Railworks" project, express tracks were installed between Erie and Olney [and the Fern Rock Transp. Ctr. Station was constructed] as the BSL was to take on an increased load of passengers as RR passengers were diverted to the Subway. SEPTA did an incredible job handling the BSL's increased load using almost all of the available car
fleet [about 110 out of 125 cars].
Why weren't the tracks between Girard and Walnut-Locust used in 1959 to the early 1960's? Were they in bad condition? Also I asked this question earlier in this topic but it was overlooked. Why is the 3rd rail in most places on the BSL at least on the South Side underneath the platform rather than across from it like in NYC?
 #747037  by thegivenup
 
I have an additional, but slightly off topic question. When I got off the BSL today at Ellsworth-Federal, I noticed on the southwest side of the station by the street exit there was an addition to the mezzanine level. In tile on the wall was the lettering for the street, but it looks like they built some bathrooms or something so now it is mostly covered. Does anyone have any detail on when and what exactly they did?
 #747077  by lefty
 
Working from memory (it's been a while since I've been to Ellsworth) There are some rooms there for storage and wash down. They put in pressure washers a number of years ago to help them wash the stations. They are defunct now, but the rooms are still there.
 #748235  by NortheastTrainMan
 
NortheastTrainMan wrote:
Which brings up my question. Why was express tracks between Erie and Olney installed in '91 when the subway was built over 50 years ago?

When the subway was built, it was built with the 4-track right of way between Olney and Walnut, but used only the two local tracks [ Express tracks existed between Girard and Walnut-Locust but they were rarely used.]. In 1959, Express tracks were installed between Erie and Girard and Express train service was introduced. This was done to induce increased ridership on the BSL. it worked briefly, but ridership on the BSL declined through the 1960's as the demographics of the neighborhood served by the subway changed, and the safety reputation of the BSL deteriorated [crime].

In the late 70's as the BSL equipment went downhill, the Express service and the Ridge spur were sacrificed to keep the locals running. In 1980, the Ridge Spur was closed due to the construction of the Center City Commuter Tunnel. In 1983, limited express service was restarted, as more K-cars came on line, the Express was expanded, and the Ridge spur was reinstated.

In 1990/91, as part of the "Railworks" project, express tracks were installed between Erie and Olney [and the Fern Rock Transp. Ctr. Station was constructed] as the BSL was to take on an increased load of passengers as RR passengers were diverted to the Subway. SEPTA did an incredible job handling the BSL's increased load using almost all of the available car
fleet [about 110 out of 125 cars].
Why weren't the tracks between Girard and Walnut-Locust used in 1959 to the early 1960's? Were they in bad condition? Also I asked this question earlier in this topic but it was overlooked. Why is the 3rd rail in most places on the BSL at least on the South Side underneath the platform rather than across from it like in NYC?
So I guess no knows the answer to my questions. Especially the third rail placement question.
 #748654  by delvyrails
 
The Broad Street Line originally was equipped with four tracks between the interlocking south of Walnut Locust and the interlocking north of Girard. However, initial service began in 1928 only north of City Hall. At that time there was a double crossover (long removed) between the west-side tracks in the middle of the reverse curve just north of City Hall which permitted the two west-side tracks at City Hall to be used for turning trains.

Apparently only after the extension to South Street was opened in 1930 did the service operate on the outside tracks exclusively. Beyond South, the half-subway was built (for economy reasons) under the east side of Broad Street in South Philadelphia; and this segment was in service from 1938.

During all of this time after the Ridge spur opened in 1932, a short tail track was in use north of the Girard junction to turn those trains in the space of the current northbound express runs. The Ridge spur trains did not go to Erie until the construction and use of the center tracks between Girard and Erie in 1959 forced the turning location northward to the Erie upper level.

I recall in the late 1940s and early 1950s that the inside tracks around City Hall were occupied by trains laying over between the morning and afternoon weekday peaks.

I hope this clarifies some points that may be in doubt.
Last edited by delvyrails on Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #748656  by NortheastTrainMan
 
Thank you. It answers one question but not the other question (3rd Rail Placement).

Broad Street Line (Philadelphia,PA)
notice how the 3rd Rail is underneath the platform. Rather than across from it

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt70 ... Locust.jpg

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt70 ... ocust2.jpg

NYC Subway (New York,New York)
notice how the 3rd rail is across from the platform rather than under it.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt70 ... rdRail.jpg

The Broad Street Line pictures were taken by Bob Vogel (chuchubob) :P . The NYC Subway picture was taken by Roberto C. Tobar.
 #750363  by NortheastTrainMan
 
Since no one knows why the 3rd rail is where it is I'll just move on to my next set of questions.

What is that circle/ring object on the B-IVs? they were also on the older BSL cars

Kawasaki B-IV

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?79611

Pre B-IV era cars

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?17087

What was this car doing on the BSL? Who made it and what was it for?

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7202

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7201

Also during the unfortunate Susquehanna-Dauphin incident how were trains ran? Were some turned or terminated?

Since the BSL did occasionally at one point in time use Bridge Cars (PATCO) were there any revenue runs on the BSL to NJ? Also if there were are there plans to restore it?
 #750378  by MelroseMatt
 
NortheastTrainMan wrote:Thank you. It answers one question but not the other question (3rd Rail Placement).

Broad Street Line (Philadelphia,PA)
notice how the 3rd Rail is underneath the platform. Rather than across from it

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt70 ... Locust.jpg

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt70 ... ocust2.jpg

NYC Subway (New York,New York)
notice how the 3rd rail is across from the platform rather than under it.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt70 ... rdRail.jpg

The Broad Street Line pictures were taken by Bob Vogel (chuchubob) :P . The NYC Subway picture was taken by Roberto C. Tobar.

If you want my guess, it was because the engineers saw what was done in NYC, and then did the opposite. Engineers are not above petty things like this.


-Matt P.E.
 #750403  by scotty269
 
NortheastTrainMan wrote:Since no one knows why the 3rd rail is where it is I'll just move on to my next set of questions.

What is that circle/ring object on the B-IVs? they were also on the older BSL cars

Kawasaki B-IV

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?79611

Pre B-IV era cars

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?17087

What was this car doing on the BSL? Who made it and what was it for?

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7202

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7201

Also during the unfortunate Susquehanna-Dauphin incident how were trains ran? Were some turned or terminated?

Since the BSL did occasionally at one point in time use Bridge Cars (PATCO) were there any revenue runs on the BSL to NJ? Also if there were are there plans to restore it?

http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/soac.html - SOAC car

What "unfortunate Susquehanna-Dauphin incident"?
 #750413  by KAWASAKI-FAN100
 
scotty269 wrote:
NortheastTrainMan wrote:Since no one knows why the 3rd rail is where it is I'll just move on to my next set of questions.

What is that circle/ring object on the B-IVs? they were also on the older BSL cars

Kawasaki B-IV

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?79611

Pre B-IV era cars

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?17087

What was this car doing on the BSL? Who made it and what was it for?

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7202

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7201

Also during the unfortunate Susquehanna-Dauphin incident how were trains ran? Were some turned or terminated?

Since the BSL did occasionally at one point in time use Bridge Cars (PATCO) were there any revenue runs on the BSL to NJ? Also if there were are there plans to restore it?

http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/soac.html - SOAC car

What "unfortunate Susquehanna-Dauphin incident"?
A student from I believe from the Military academy jumped in front of the SB local train back in March.

Shortly after the incident my SB express train converted to local service once it reached Walnut - Locust station. The local train that was right behind the set the ran down the teen went out of service at Erie forcing passengers to seek alternate transportaion. Once the last train rolled between Girard and Erie. Shuttle buses were called in as the power was shut off so crews can remove the body. Local trains operated between FR and Erie. I don't know what happened south of Girard.

Hope this answered your question.
 #750420  by scotty269
 
Ah, that's right.

I waited at Olney for a good 5 minutes before an express came. Apparently, there hadn't been a train hadn't been through since 12:00 (and it was already 12:30 when it finally came) so all the school students jammed on the train. We came to a slow crawl around Hunting Park and then stopped outside of Erie for 5 more minutes. At Erie, we were told the subway was being shutdown and we could transfer to a bus shuttle. On the surface, things were a mess. Broad/Erie was JAM PACKED with people trying to board a BSL Shuttle Bus. My friends and I were heading for chinatown, so I had the brilliant idea of hopping on the 23.
 #750424  by Patrick Boylan
 
NortheastTrainMan wrote: What is that circle/ring object on the B-IVs? they were also on the older BSL cars
that's an IDENTRA coil, it's a rather old fashioned but still effective part of the route selection system. google IDENTRA for more info, but essentially there is a dial with several numbered settings on it, depending on what number the track switches will line up for the appropriate route.
I believe Toronto also uses IDENTRA to set the destination signs at stations.
NortheastTrainMan wrote: Since the BSL did occasionally at one point in time use Bridge Cars (PATCO) were there any revenue runs on the BSL to NJ? Also if there were are there plans to restore it?
I had read somewhere that when the Ben Franklin Bridge line ran only Philly to Camden, pre 1968, it was not unusual to have trains from the Ridge Ave spur change ends at 8th and Market or 16th and Locust and operate over the Bridge. I doubt any passengers availed themselves of the 1 seat ride, but I also don't think the operators emptied the trains when they changed ends.
I don't know of any serious plans to restore this service.
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