History of the Broad Street Line

Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

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NortheastTrainMan
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by NortheastTrainMan » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:56 pm

Are there any photos of the BSS Cash N Trash train?

Also once again did BSS trains run on a schedule similar to the Susquehanna–Dauphin schedule after this occured?

http://septawatch.com/blog/2009/7/20/wo ... -rail.html
I like trains and operations mainly on the east coast but also all over the U.S. and the world!

I only know what is open to the public nothing more.

MelroseMatt
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by MelroseMatt » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:49 am

Trackseventeen wrote:
PARailWiz wrote:
Trackseventeen wrote:I still say the Blvd. line should have been on the top of the list for the Obama stimulus..... it is shovel ready (studied a million times)..... but nothing came of it.
It's been studied a million times but, but are there detailed design plans sitting around suitable for constructions? Typically the studies only determine the estimated cost and feasibility of a project but don't actually design more than a proposed alignment.
Well..... in phillyroads.com there are some pretty detailed plans there..... Shows middle lane expressway, with outboard local lanes with BSS subway.....


JeffK, and others, thanks for the background on the El. I think we're finally settling on the real reason for the seemingly illogical 3rd rail placement is - lost to history. (my vote is still on cost).


Trackseventeen - Just to give you an idea of what's required for infrastructure work. I'm a mechanical engineer, currently employed in the business of movable bridges (draw, swing, lift). Today, I happen to be doing a review on machinery for a new bridge in Florida (Type '353 Ocean Ave. Lantana, FL' into google maps to see the existing bridge. The new one will not look much different.)

This one is up to 276 engineering drawings for the whole bridge. The machinery is only 27 drawings, so if it were a fixed bridge, it would still be around 250 drawings. Each one backed up by engineering calculations, and peer reviewed by other engineers. Note that these are just the BID drawings - whatever contractor wins the bid, will still have to fill in many of the routine details, and will likely triple the drawing count. Overall project time line, from spec development to ribbon cutting 4-5 years. This is considered a very routine bridge, it looks like thousands of others already in service.

All the bridges required for a mass transit line running the length of the Boulevard would be comparatively monumental. Its very easy to conceptualize, or sketch an elevated line running the median, but once someone has to put dimensions and details, and calculate beam and column sizing, the real work begins.

Peruse the 2003 proposals when you get a minute. http://www.svmetro.com/projects/roosevelt-blvd.php

That said - I've sketched some ideas for connecting the proposed DRPA Delaware Ave. trolley with the existing subway-surface lines and possibly the MFL at 30th st by running through South Philly. I'll post them when I get a minute in the evening. I'm sure we can stir up a few opinions.
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Suburban Station
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by Suburban Station » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:44 pm

[quote=gardendance]I had read somewhere that when the Ben Franklin Bridge line ran only Philly to Camden, pre 1968, it was not unusual to have trains from the Ridge Ave spur change ends at 8th and Market or 16th and Locust and operate over the Bridge. I doubt any passengers availed themselves of the 1 seat ride, but I also don't think the operators emptied the trains when they changed ends.
I don't know of any serious plans to restore this service.[/quote]
at the very least it would be nice to see spur service back in the tunnel with cross platform transfers to PATCO. I don't see how it's "severed for good."

question about the future: it appears that they are reopening the capped entrances at spring garden and girard. is this true? I haven't seen plans for the rehabbed stations.
also, I'm concerned abotu city hall. SEPTA seems to be taking the angle of removing walls from the platforms to create more space but an even bigger problem is the narrow staircases. they could probably remove the extra stair cases that lead to nowhere but the one leading to the el directly really needs to be widened. couldn't they replace that wall with a column?

Lastly, have expresses ever been run to snyder and turned there? for example, extending normal express service south of walnut and turning at snyder (the most heavily ridden south philly stop)?

NortheastTrainMan
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by NortheastTrainMan » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:23 pm

I don't think expresses have ran south of Walnut Locust to Snyder. There probably aren't plans of installing express service on the South Philly side of the BSS. It's pointless because the North Philly side has many more passenger boardings than the South Philly side. And turning trains at Snyder? Unless it's an emergency it's not going to happen, at least until the entire BSS becomes 4 tracks....

North Philly on BSS-(North Of City Hall) and South Philly on BSS(South Of City Hall)
I like trains and operations mainly on the east coast but also all over the U.S. and the world!

I only know what is open to the public nothing more.

Suburban Station
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by Suburban Station » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:33 pm

NortheastTrainMan wrote:I don't think expresses have ran south of Walnut Locust to Snyder. There probably aren't plans of installing express service on the South Philly side of the BSS. It's pointless because the North Philly side has many more passenger boardings than the South Philly side. And turning trains at Snyder? Unless it's an emergency it's not going to happen, at least until the entire BSS becomes 4 tracks....

North Philly on BSS-(North Of City Hall) and South Philly on BSS(South Of City Hall)
why? snyder has the highest level of boardings in south philly and the track layout allows for southbound trains to crossover to the northbound platform at snyder. why not use this functionality? said expresses could simply be extended to pattison for sports expresses. I don't think you need the four tracks, at least not with the frequency SEPTA currently runs trains. a four track station at snyder might be helpful to allow express trains to bypass locals.

NortheastTrainMan
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by NortheastTrainMan » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:41 pm

Suburban Station wrote:
NortheastTrainMan wrote:I don't think expresses have ran south of Walnut Locust to Snyder. There probably aren't plans of installing express service on the South Philly side of the BSS. It's pointless because the North Philly side has many more passenger boardings than the South Philly side. And turning trains at Snyder? Unless it's an emergency it's not going to happen, at least until the entire BSS becomes 4 tracks....

North Philly on BSS-(North Of City Hall) and South Philly on BSS(South Of City Hall)
why? snyder has the highest level of boardings in south philly and the track layout allows for southbound trains to crossover to the northbound platform at snyder. why not use this functionality? said expresses could simply be extended to pattison for sports expresses. I don't think you need the four tracks, at least not with the frequency SEPTA currently runs trains. a four track station at snyder might be helpful to allow express trains to bypass locals.
Snyder may have the highest amount of boardings on that portion of the line but that's not enough to make SEPTA consider running trains express to Snyder. Yes I know there's a crossover there on the northern end of Snyder. But like I said before it's pointless to have expresses running to Snyder. Therefore it's pointless to have trains turned at Snyder. Also the chance of having 4 tracks on that portion of the BSS is like the chances of getting the Broad Street Line branches built.
I like trains and operations mainly on the east coast but also all over the U.S. and the world!

I only know what is open to the public nothing more.

DeltaV
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by DeltaV » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:51 am

It wouldn't be the most difficult thing in the world to run expresses to Snyder & Pattison on a regular basis: just make sure the express leaves Walnut Locust right before the local (call it train B), like the sports expresses (this is assuming it wouldn't reach snyder before the previous local (train A)). That express train then becomes the local for the return trip, while the previous local (train A) then becomes the express for the return trip. The run distance in south philly is short enough that I think this would be possible? You could potentially make Lombard/South a local/express stop as well, if it would help with scheduling (although then you're cutting down on benefit of stops skipped).

MelroseMatt
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by MelroseMatt » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:01 am

by Trackseventeen on Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:41 am wrote: Walt, Correct me if Im wrong, but couldnt the dual guaging on the Market Street line been accomplished easily since the original third rail on the P&W was also underrunning? Also I think the whole length of the third rail along the el is outboard which means that the inner P&W rail would be the lone rail alowwing the P&W cars to come very close to the stations.
Trackseventeen's observation from 3 years ago may be the most plauseable reason yet for the 3rd rail under the platform.
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NortheastTrainMan
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by NortheastTrainMan » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:25 pm

MelroseMatt wrote:
NortheastTrainMan wrote:
Also one more thing. I love how I post questions and they're just ignored and overlooked. :-)
by Trackseventeen on Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:41 am wrote: Walt, Correct me if Im wrong, but couldnt the dual guaging on the Market Street line been accomplished easily since the original third rail on the P&W was also underrunning? Also I think the whole length of the third rail along the el is outboard which means that the inner P&W rail would be the lone rail alowwing the P&W cars to come very close to the stations.
Trackseventeen's observation from 3 years ago may be the most plauseable reason yet for the 3rd rail under the platform.
I read Trackseventeen's reply. In fact I've read every reply since I'm interested in the BSS. But what I'm saying is I feel like I have to ask a question multiple times before I can even get a response. And the first response to my first question (3rd Rail) I got was that my question was petty and insignificant. You (MelroseMatt) and Trackseventeen however actually answered the question directly.

These are questions open to anyone to answer. Not to say my question is insignificant.

Once again......
Are there any photos of the BSS Cash N Trash train?

Also once again did BSS trains run on a schedule similar to the Susquehanna–Dauphin schedule after this occured?

http://septawatch.com/blog/2009/7/20/wo ... -rail.html
I like trains and operations mainly on the east coast but also all over the U.S. and the world!

I only know what is open to the public nothing more.

dcipjr
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by dcipjr » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:40 pm

I haven't seen any pictures of the Cash & Trash train as a whole, but car 666 is listed on this page:

http://www.philadelphiatransitvehicles. ... dballs.php

As for the CWs, I could have sworn I saw a picture of them somewhere but can't seem to locate it now.

KAWASAKI-FAN100
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by KAWASAKI-FAN100 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:18 pm

Here are my pics

Click to enlarge

Image
ImageImage


I am sorry if this is still not what your looking for.
Kyle W.

NortheastTrainMan
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by NortheastTrainMan » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:23 pm

Cool stuff man! That's it. This might sound stupid but actually before I started this topic I was unaware that the BSS had a Cash N Trash train, or any non revenue train that collected fares. I also inadvertanly found the same thing out about the MFL through this topic.

Thanks for the pics though.
I like trains and operations mainly on the east coast but also all over the U.S. and the world!

I only know what is open to the public nothing more.

Trackseventeen
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by Trackseventeen » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:11 am

PARailWiz wrote:
Can you link them? I'd like to see them.

By detailed construction plans, I mean plans detailed enough that they specify things like the exact dimensions of proposed stations and exactly where they will be, electrical plans, plumbing plans, utility relocation plans, geotechnical reports all along the route, plans for relocating or shoring up adjacent foundations that might be impacted, etc, etc, etc... For a project the size of the Boulevard Subway the amount of preliminary work to design it to the point where construction crews could conceivably begin work is immense even after an alignment is chosen.
After reading this again, maybe it's not so "shovel ready"...... but it still should have been considered as a stimulus project, since lack of monies is the only thing keeping it from being completed.

http://www.phillyroads.com/roads/roosevelt/
900,000 tons of steel, made to roll
The brakes don't work and this grade's so steep
her engines sure to blow...
900,000 tons of steel, out of control
She's more a roller coaster, than the train I used to know.

Tritransit Area
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by Tritransit Area » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:35 am

If I'm not mistaken, they still have yet to choose a mode for the line. The stimulus dollars required that the applicants needed to be able to start construction on the project within 180 days. Unfortunately, for some reason we still are far from that stage.
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MelroseMatt
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Re: History of the Broad Street Line

Post by MelroseMatt » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:08 am

Tritransit Area wrote:If I'm not mistaken, they still have yet to choose a mode for the line. The stimulus dollars required that the applicants needed to be able to start construction on the project within 180 days. Unfortunately, for some reason we still are far from that stage.
I'm sure someone has the drawings from the '60s when they built the Adams Ave. subway station. Just start re-building it to the old prints within 180 days, make sure to take your time here, so that engineering has time to figure out what to do with the rest of the line...
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