Railroad Forums 

  • Officials push for extending MARC service to Elkton, Newark

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

 #393607  by amusing erudition
 
CHIP72 wrote:Baltimore's urbanized area does not extend to any part of Cecil County at this time. (The urbanized area at the western end of that county is part of the Aberdeen-Havre de Grace-Bel Air area, not the Baltimore area.)

Well I don't think the Penn Line goes to Perryville so people can commute to Aberdeen. Baltimore's MSA picks up right where Philadelphia's ends. There is no Harford County DMZ.*

-asg

(*De-Metropolized Zone :wink: )

 #393632  by skm
 
islandtransit wrote:Exactly! Newark always has cars with Maryland plates in the parking lot
You can find cars with Maryland plates at Marcus Hook.


Hartford County (Bel Air, Aberdeen, Havre De Grace) appears to be the informal boundary for couples working in Philly and Baltimore. Housing is relatively inexpensive. My observation is based on couples I know who commute between both cities.

 #393701  by islandtransit
 
That's because Marcus Hook has so much better service than both Newark and Wilmington

 #393714  by Matthew Mitchell
 
amusing erudition wrote:Well I don't think the Penn Line goes to Perryville so people can commute to Aberdeen.
Actually, that's going to become a significant market, because of relocation of military functions from other locations to Aberdeen (see BRAC).

 #393740  by amusing erudition
 
Matthew Mitchell wrote:Actually, that's going to become a significant market, because of relocation of military functions from other locations to Aberdeen (see BRAC).
Yes, but it's only six miles away from Perryville; I regularly walk half that to class. The Penn Line doesn't exist to get people from Perryville in Cecil County to Aberdeen, no matter how popular Aberdeen is as a destination. It goes to Perryville to get people to Baltimore and Washington. If neither Baltimore nor Washington were there, Aberdeen would not have a commuter rail system.

-asg

 #393782  by Matthew Mitchell
 
amusing erudition wrote:
Matthew Mitchell wrote:Actually, that's going to become a significant market, because of relocation of military functions from other locations to Aberdeen (see BRAC).
Yes, but it's only six miles away from Perryville; I regularly walk half that to class. The Penn Line doesn't exist to get people from Perryville in Cecil County to Aberdeen, no matter how popular Aberdeen is as a destination. It goes to Perryville to get people to Baltimore and Washington. If neither Baltimore nor Washington were there, Aberdeen would not have a commuter rail system.
Of course that's right, and I didn't mean to say that Aberdeen was the reason for the Penn Line North's existence. However, to the extent that you can get some riders in the reverse of the normal to-Baltimore/Washington peak, you'll improve the cost-effectiveness of the line, maybe even to the point of being able to justify extending it up to Wilmington. This is part of the reason why the legislature in Maryland is leaning on the MTA to extend service.(*) After all, if you can turn a seat over twice on a single trip in the commuter rail industry (e.g. Newark-Aberdeen, Aberdeen-Washington), you're ahead of the game.

*--and MTA is resisting: probably because they're thinking short-term budgeting while the legislature is thinking long-term development.

 #393790  by CHIP72
 
amusing erudition wrote:
CHIP72 wrote:Baltimore's urbanized area does not extend to any part of Cecil County at this time. (The urbanized area at the western end of that county is part of the Aberdeen-Havre de Grace-Bel Air area, not the Baltimore area.)
Well I don't think the Penn Line goes to Perryville so people can commute to Aberdeen. Baltimore's MSA picks up right where Philadelphia's ends. There is no Harford County DMZ.*

-asg

(*De-Metropolized Zone :wink: )
Oh, I agree - many people going to the Perryville MARC station are going to be traveling to Baltimore or Washington.

One could argue that from a pure planning perspective (i.e. ideal in terms of travel patterns), extending SEPTA to Perryville is at least as valid as extending MARC to Newark (where in either case the town would be both the SEPTA R2 and MARC Penn Line terminus). I personally don't think that's the case, but it's not as nonsensical as it appears at first glance. Either way, I think (again from the "pure planning perspective") that connecting SEPTA and MARC at Elkton provides the most benefits to existing and potential SEPTA and MARC passengers.

 #393800  by amusing erudition
 
I think overlapping them makes more sense. As my example of such setup, I proffer the Shore Line East service to Stamford. Not exactly the same situation, but it shows three railroads can coexist while providing good connections in both directions (it's the longest such instance in the country, with other, shorter examples being lines operated jointly by Amtrak and VRE/MARC (within Union Station), SEPTA/NJT (in Trenton and Philadelphia), NJT/LIRR (in Penn Station), Metra/South Shore (concurrent with the City of New Orleans), and Metrolink/Coaster (at Oceanside)).

-asg

 #393846  by CHIP72
 
Yeah, it's obviously preferable to have SEPTA and MARC at least connect at one station, ala the NJT/SEPTA connection at Trenton and the Metrolink/Coaster connection at Oceanside. There are a good number of people in the Wilmington-Perryville segment, I'd guess especially in the Newark-Elkton segment, who commute in either direction.

As for overlapping SEPTA/MARC service on a particular segment (probably a portion somewhere within Wilmington-Perryville segment or possibly even that segment as a whole), I think there could be genuine benefits. However, if you have good schedule coordination between the SEPTA and MARC services, similar to what NJT and SEPTA try to do at Trenton, you could accomplish almost the same passenger efficiency while being able to at least theoretically run shorter headways and have greater schedule flexibility on what would be a somewhat shorter route for both services. Both SEPTA and MARC would get approximately twice as many passengers on the "overlapping segment" than they would otherwise.

Ultimately, I think the question comes down to how many people from western Cecil County/Perryville or Harford County would use SEPTA and/or how many people from Newark or Wilmington would use MARC. If the numbers are decent but not real large, then a shared station and coordinated SEPTA/MARC schedules may be preferable. As a present-day example, I'm sure there are a decent number of people who travel between Philadelphia and the Princeton area and are forced to make a 2-seat train ride (unless they use Amtrak), but the number of people isn't so large to justify SEPTA going to Princeton Junction. Having the connection with NJT at Trenton ultimately makes the most sense.

There is one other important factor - I think it would be pretty important that both SEPTA and MARC increased their schedule frequency on their respective routes to Elkton, Newark, or wherever they connected (assuming they don't have overlapping segments). You want to guarantee connections between SEPTA and MARC, but there will be times when one or both providers cannot do that, due to weather, mechanical problems, etc. Being stranded at a station isn't ideal in any case, but being stranded for say 1 hour is better than being stranded for 3 hours or whatever the infrequent headways are currently on the SEPTA R2 at Newark and the MARC Penn Line at Perryville.

 #393853  by amusing erudition
 
CHIP72 wrote:There is one other important factor - I think it would be pretty important that both SEPTA and MARC increased their schedule frequency on their respective routes to Elkton, Newark, or wherever they connected (assuming they don't have overlapping segments).
That's the basis for my comment. I think it's easier for each line to justify overlapping the few trains it's already sending to the final terminus (nine a day to Newark, six a day to Perryville, weekday rush hours only) than it is for them to increase the frequency so much that a connection would be good.

And that's how it's different from transferring at Trenton, where the trains on both systems have to run frequently anyway.

-asg

 #393854  by Matthew Mitchell
 
I think the non-railfan market for connecting travel between SEPTA and MARC will be miniscule. Even if the connections are coordinated (it will be hard to do just one way, let alone two), it's going to be a minimum three-seat ride. The inconvenience of the transfer greatly outweighs the inconvenience of driving that segment of I-95. Commuters, nearly all of whom are driving to the station anyway, will just keep on going past the nearest station to the first station of the other railroad, or else they'll ride Amtrak to the extent schedules make it possible.

Matt Mitchell
(did a Glenside to Maryland [weekly] Amtrak commute for a year)

 #393954  by amusing erudition
 
Doesn't really say much about people commuting in SEPTA's direction; in fact, they're not mentioned at all, except in inference by stating that the other end of the commuter rail gap is in Newark. Frankly from a Wilmington paper I'd like to see a more balanced story between where these people are going. Surely some of them are commuting to Wilmington or Philadelphia.

-asg

 #393975  by skm
 
Matthew Mitchell wrote:I think the non-railfan market for connecting travel between SEPTA and MARC will be miniscule. Even if the connections are coordinated (it will be hard to do just one way, let alone two), it's going to be a minimum three-seat ride. The inconvenience of the transfer greatly outweighs the inconvenience of driving that segment of I-95. Commuters, nearly all of whom are driving to the station anyway, will just keep on going past the nearest station to the first station of the other railroad, or else they'll ride Amtrak to the extent schedules make it possible.

Matt Mitchell
(did a Glenside to Maryland [weekly] Amtrak commute for a year)
I've done the Newark Del (via Perryville and Marc) to DC commute when I lived in Newark on occaison. When the travel budget was plentiful I took Amtrak, later on it was Marc and Perryville. I'm hoping the market will be significantly more than miniscule and the coordination of trains will be efficient. I'm not a fan of I-95.

 #393990  by cpontani
 
There would be more interest in commuting from Newark to Philly if the last afternoon peak train to Newark left after 5:33 from Market East. If you have to stay late, or have a dinner meeting, Septa becomes completely worthless. You can make a DART bus connection from Wilmington to Newark, but not Churchmans (connections are not available late at night). You can take the 7:32 or 9:28 from Market East, and after sitting on the R2 local, you can sit on a bus (Route 33) for another 40 minutes, and limp into Newark two hours after you left Philly. So unless you're a raging alcoholic and shouldn't be driving, a normal and sane person will bang out that post-PM-peak ride in about an hour. Not too convenient if you ask me.

A.E.'s idea of overlapping service provides the most potential for increased service between Newark and Wilmington. I'd assume DelDOT would have to contract to MARC to provide any service into Delaware? But this would still require DelDOT to step up to the plate and pony up for the increased service. If MARC were only to go to Newark, it shouldn't cost DelDOT much, if anything, right?

I don't think there will be concern for more trains running along the NEC in that stretch, as they should be able to handle the every 10 or 15 minutes or so. However, the layovers would be cause for concern. Either you have to turn the trains around in a couple of minutes, but then what happens to the schedule if you're a few minutes late? And there's no room for connecting service in Newark today. But overlapping service to Wilmington might be one way to get the Marc trains out of everybody's way.

How much increased/connecting/overlapping service could we see? DelDOT in my opinion isn't exploiting the intra-Delaware potential rail customers, and have bus-tituted the sole midday train. Just because Marc and Septa will both stop at a station, will there be actually connecting service? Or will we see fewer and fewer trains going all the way to the end of their lines? So if 8 Septa trains make it to Newark today, will there only be two that make it to Elkton? Same for Marc?

Here's another idea. Since the rationale is that people are going to be driving south on 95 from Delaware to Aberdeen, why not have Aberdeen the connection point? Granted, that's a haul for Septa. Or do you create a new DelDOT service a la Shore Line East. I vision them running from Marcus Hook, Claymont, Fox Point/Edgemoor, Wilmington, Churchmans, Newark, Elkton, Charlestown, and Aberdeen. There's room to put a layover yard south of the existing station, or run it as the connecting service all the way into the base instead of building a connecting light rail. Then the new DelDOT service can take over the R2 express trains, last/first local stop being Claymont, so they wouldn't be responsible for for PA riders. That would be the only through train to Philly, using 30th lower level. They can even take Septa's bomber cars off their hands. If DelDOT runs into MD, then wouldn't they be compensated? Can this be a profit-maker?

Is it time for me to come down from my cloud? :P