Trenton Spur At Frazer/Cross Country Metro

[Wdobner]

What about using the line as a means for people to reach destinations like New York or Harrisburg without going to Center City or Trenton, or is that market not big enough to justify the cost?

I think that commute market, in particular the Bucks and Montgomery county residents commuting to NYC, as well as the potential use as a P&R line delivering commuters from Bucks, Chester, and Montgomery counties to the King of Prussia office developments should be the primary thrust of any CCM plan. We don't expect everyone to be able to walk to the other Regional Rail lines, so I'm confused as to why the standard appears to be different for CCM. Of course it's unlikely that commuters travelling suburb to suburb will use CCM to reach somewhere like Plymouth Meeting, but folks without cars or those unusually fed up with traffic would probably welcome a shuttle as a godsend.

IMHO it really comes down to King of Prussia, as it would be imperative that the line come closer to both the mall and the office developments than the former PRR line does, and it should pass through Norristown as to provide a transfer and track connection to the R6 and whatever SVM ends up being. This would presumably mean that an elevated line would have to be built between the Trenton cutoff just west of the I-76 bridge and the NS Reading line somewhere around Port Kennedy. Now, if SEPTA can ever get the Rt100 King of Prussia extension off the drawing boards this el could easily be built with the Rt100 down the middle and provisions for the CCM and perhaps even an SVM spur or route from Center City direct to the KOP mall to be added outside those tracks. That probably would be the single most expensive component of any Cross County Metro project, and once that essential lynchpin was complete it'd be fairly straightforward and fairly affordable to expand the double tracking, add some sidings, string the wire, build stations and place park and rides and start service.

[rdgrailfan]

The Cross County Metro is a stalled project that could have great environmental, residential and business benefits in reduced traffic and more importantly reduced commute times for their constituents.

The project is stalled in funding but the rail line the parallels the turnpike could be an economic boom to the communities and its residents. Our Representatives should look very close at methods that will allow the project to get back on track at a reasonable start up cost rather than the original METRO concept. It can be integrated into SEPTA if they decide to think out of the box.
A start of service at Trenton, NJ would draw commuters from NJ.

It would:

• Decrease traffic corridor pollution concerns from truck and autos.
• Provide immediate relief of the need to expand the turnpike further to accommodate increased traffic.
• Plan for our future as the cost of fuel and our commute increase, this would provide a needed relief valve to any potential energy crisis.
• Growth = Upper Moreland / Ft. Washington and KOP could be hubs on this system based on the possible exixting SEPTA connection.
• Give users a definite “commute time” at a reasonable cost, anybody sitting in traffic on the “pike” realizes this benefit.

Before the cost is sited as a reason for the stall, perhaps we can review the cost of the recent turnpike capital construction in our area as a barometer for reasons to get back on track.

Try a two year test with temp stations and parking, connector buses, weekday schedules...consider asking NS to run the service?

[cpontani]

I think Septa's mindset was diesels be damned when they killed them off in the 80's and exists today. Is Peco padding the Board of Directors? Septa has what -- six? -- push-pull sets, and can only figure out how to use them each twice a day? How about zoned express service on the R5, R7, and R2 during the midday and/or weekends? Septa used every last brain cell on the Center City Tunnel, and left nothing else for any other improvements. How can it be that there's only one major park-and-ride station on the regional rail (Cornwells Hts.)?

Another problem is that way too many stops on the system rely on people walking to the station, or the parking lots are really small, and there's no room for growth.

[Matthew Mitchell]

I think Septa's mindset was diesels be damned when they killed them off in the 80's and exists today. Is Peco padding the Board of Directors?

No conflict I know of, and the resistance to doing anything other than the same old [stuff] comes from management. That attitude, more than any shortage of funding, is the reason our rail network is the only one in the nation that shrank rather than expanded (not counting LIRR dropping the vestigial LIC branch and making a new and faster connection off the main line to LIC station)

Septa has what -- six? -- push-pull sets, and can only figure out how to use them each twice a day? How about zoned express service on the R5, R7, and R2 during the midday and/or weekends?

Economically, it's just not justified: you don't even have the ridership to fill up an MU consist at off-peak hours, and the push-pulls are more costly and slower.

Septa used every last brain cell on the Center City Tunnel, and left nothing else for any other improvements. How can it be that there's only one major park-and-ride station on the regional rail (Cornwells Hts.)?

Another problem is that way too many stops on the system rely on people walking to the station, or the parking lots are really small, and there's no room for growth.

You may not have realized it, but you answered your own question: the network of stations, particularly in the city and inner suburbs, is exceptionally dense, the result of our having two competing railroads in the early 20th century. Each of those stations has a relatively small catchment area, and passengers don't have to go far to access the railroad. This for the most part is a good thing, aside from the fact that it's costly to serve so many stations.

And SEPTA definitely has more park/ride stations than just Cornwells. Warminster, Exton, Thorndale, and Claymont for example. Granted they are not the scale of Princeton Junction, or other New York-oriented stations, but Center City Philadelphia has far fewer commuter-oriented jobs than Manhattan.

[JeffK]

Another problem is that way too many stops on the system rely on people walking to the station ...

SEPTA's stations are among the most closely-spaced of any commuter rail system. However nearly every time a station is slated for closing there's a public outcry. The minimum-boardings standard has been tightened in recent years so it's been a bit easier to shut down poorly-used stations, but not by much.

... or the parking lots are really small, and there's no room for growth.

Again, one of the few failings that can't be completely laid at SEPTA's (two left) feet. Many of the communities served by the RRD are very mature with lots of homes and businesses that were established near the ROW over the last 120+ years - a sign of success, since it means the rails encouraged transit-oriented growth. The unintended consequence in our now car-dominated lives is that as those areas have filled in even more, there's no place to put additional parking without either tearing down existing buildings (see Ardmore) or constructing expensive garages (see Paoli, Norristown).

[glennk419]

Septa used every last brain cell on the Center City Tunnel, and left nothing else for any other improvements.

You're actually being too kind here. The concept and construction of the CCCT was well underway long before Septa took over operation of the Railroad Division. The actual credit for the tunnel and Market East goes to the city and more specifically, the Rizzo administration for making it a reality.

[Matthew Mitchell]

You're actually being too kind here. The concept and construction of the CCCT was well underway long before Septa took over operation of the Railroad Division. The actual credit for the tunnel and Market East goes to the city and more specifically, the Rizzo administration for making it a reality.

That's right. And the operating plan was more or less outsourced to Vukan Vuchic and Shinya Kikuchi.

[greg19051]

The actual credit for the tunnel and Market East goes to the city and more specifically, the Rizzo administration for making it a reality.

And Rizzo's good friend Richard Nixon.

[jfrey40535]

There already is some sort of Park-n-Ride (what people ride, I don't know) at King of Prussia for commuters who lived in that area that wanted to go to Trenton, NY or Harrisburg. SEPTA or the mall could very easily have a dedicated shuttle for the train & mall. It would be a 5-10 minute ride.

I think any realistic chance of this project happening went out the window when Conrail took down the wires and NS pulled up the second track and cut down the unused catenary support poles.

I think Septa's mindset was diesels be damned when they killed them off in the 80's and exists today. Is Peco padding the Board of Directors?

Notice how quickly PECO took an interest in the PRR catenary infrastructure as soon as those wires came down. PECO now runs their own transmission lines along the line from Willow Grove to Langhorne.

[glennk419]

Not sure if anyone else ever noticed but Septa apparently purchased the property near the old Fellwick station that is roughtly in a traingle between Camp Hill Rd, Rt 309 and the R5 tracks. There were Septa "No Tresspassing" signs erected across the driveway to the old farmhouse on that tract, I often wondered if that was done in anticipation of a PnR for the CC Metro at that point. Hard to believe that they'd serve the R5 from that point after all the expansion at Fort Washington but it would be an obvious transfer point.

[Matthew Mitchell]

Not sure if anyone else ever noticed but Septa apparently purchased the property near the old Fellwick station that is roughtly in a traingle between Camp Hill Rd, Rt 309 and the R5 tracks. There were Septa "No Tresspassing" signs erected across the driveway to the old farmhouse on that tract, I often wondered if that was done in anticipation of a PnR for the CC Metro at that point.

Nope. They use it as a staging area for the construction at Fort Washington and elsewhere up and down the line. I go by there frequently.

[glennk419]

Not sure if anyone else ever noticed but Septa apparently purchased the property near the old Fellwick station that is roughtly in a traingle between Camp Hill Rd, Rt 309 and the R5 tracks. There were Septa "No Tresspassing" signs erected across the driveway to the old farmhouse on that tract, I often wondered if that was done in anticipation of a PnR for the CC Metro at that point.

Nope. They use it as a staging area for the construction at Fort Washington and elsewhere up and down the line. I go by there frequently.

Thanks, I'm familiar with all of the activity and construction materials being staged at the old Fellwick station site. The driveway I was referring to is further west and led to the old white house directly adjacent to the 309 expressway. Guess I was just being overly optomistic.

[jfrey40535]

And SEPTA definitely has more park/ride stations than just Cornwells. Warminster, Exton, Thorndale, and Claymont for example. Granted they are not the scale of Princeton Junction, or other New York-oriented stations, but Center City Philadelphia has far fewer commuter-oriented jobs than Manhattan.

That's part of the problem with how SEPTA has evolved the "railroad" since 1983. Its become more of a suburbanite-only system. SEPTA's policy has been focused on installing mega park-n-ride facilities, with the garage at Norristown being the newest addition. At the same time, SEPTA is ignoring and isolating the city market. Alot of the inner-city stations are gone (Nicetown, Tioga, Logan, Spring Garden, Fkfd Jct, and so on). The ones that remain have been ignored, or might as well have closed signs on them already (Wayne, N Phila, Bridesburg). Having many stops close together does cause other issues, but giving people in the city the ability to walk to the train, or access it by connecting bus is something we do want! The region is not going to thrive if the transit system excludes certain groups of people or encourages automobile use.

Alot of people in the inner-city "hood's" do commute to the burbs for better paying jobs. While a good number do take the train, I think most are on the bus. In some cases, CCM would serve some of these people well, depending on what kind of running time it offered.

I think a service standard that included inner-city stations could exist that would not slow down peak inbound commuters. For example, inbound trains don't need to stop at Nicetown during the AM peak, but outbound AM off-peak do, and reverse for the PM peak.

[DickyDunn]

A start of service at Trenton, NJ would draw commuters from NJ.

It would:

• Decrease traffic corridor pollution concerns from truck and autos.
• Provide immediate relief of the need to expand the turnpike further to accommodate increased traffic.
• Plan for our future as the cost of fuel and our commute increase, this would provide a needed relief valve to any potential energy crisis.
• Growth = Upper Moreland / Ft. Washington and KOP could be hubs on this system based on the possible exixting SEPTA connection.
• Give users a definite “commute time” at a reasonable cost, anybody sitting in traffic on the “pike” realizes this benefit.

Does anyone pick up some undesireable effects from the CCM?

I work in Trenton, Upper Moreland and Fort Washington and I can see the drug trade expand from Trenton through the various hubs mentioned by rdg.

Upper Moreland and neighboring Abington already have their fair share of narcotics traffic. From Ft. Washington on the R5, dealers have access to Lansdale and points nearby with even higher rates of drug arrests.

[thegivenup]

Drugs are going to get to their markets regardless of whether SEPTA runs or not. I should hope that the people backing SEPTA expansion aren't just drug dealers and common criminals that see this as a new way to make money without having to drive a car.