Newtown Line

[blueduck577]

Now that the Pitcairns are dead and gone, why not bring back service to Newtown? Let's run some catenary and throw a Silverliner on there.

How much would it cost to replace ties and crossings? How much for new signaling? How much for electrification?

How much to bring this line back!?

Perhaps we should all write to Bill Gates and beg him to donate a billion or two for the Newtown line.

[matt1168]

Perhaps we should also get practical.

[queenlnr8]

In regaurds to service to Newtown, I think that the fastest (and most economical) way to get trains out there would be to have them be diesel at first. Then down the road, as ridership increases, electrify the line. That way, there won't be billions spent on a new electric line that may or may not have any sort of base ridership.

And, diesel service wouldn't be so bad. There is just the thought of where are you going to put the trains? Do you have a two seat ride from Newtown? Or, run them in to the city for a one seat ride?

A one seat ride would be the most advantageous way to get people to ride the line. Now, running them in to 30th Street would be the best plan, seeing as it is the most accessable station in the city and the only one that can handle diesel passenger service, no matter how 'clean' it is. Now, I don't know if this is true or not, but Amtrak and NJT cannot be using EVERY platform in the lower portion of the station. Is there a way that SEPTA could commander (read: ask nicely) to use the furthest platform to where they are located in the station? I don't think that too many trains already use that platform.

But, with that suggestion, there is the question, how will we get the train from lower 30th Street to Newtown? There is the crossover near North Philly that connects the NEC to the former Reading Line. But, that would involve a nasty crossover and I don't think that Amtrak would allow ANOTHER 'R8-esque' crossing. Too messy.

Another suggestion (from the former boards) was to terminate the trains at Temple. Then they could turn back using the former Reading viaduct. This would require some massive rebuilding and I don't think that SEPTA would want to invest in that.

Has anyone thought of terminating Newtown trains at North Broad? There is that nice little 'yard' next to the tracks that could store diesel trains and allow for turning. Plus, it is right next to the Subway and North Philadelphia Stations for easy transfers. (Though, this part of town is not too nice, it would require some massive station rebuilding (think concourse) and security upgrades. I don't feel safe there in brad daylight.)

Ok, who else has thoughts on how this could be done?

[blueduck577]

I was thinking they could terminate the trains at Fern Rock on the third track there - it is perfect, you can transfer to another Regional Rail train or the subway. The only problem is we need to get the trains to Fern Rock! Maybe a simple connecting track to the R3?

[Clearfield]

The only viable long term answer to SEPTA operating in non-catenary territory is dual-mode. It would open up Newtown, West Chester (where the cat is as bad as the track), Quakertown, and Reading. One seat.

[jfrey40535]

The only practical temporary solution would be to restore diesel service to Fox Chase. SEPTA does not have the resources to waste money on dual mode equipment, bridges at Temple or connecting tracks at Fern Rock. There is no feasibility in investing in temporary infrastructure if the line were to be restored.

I'm more curious about SEPTA's real intentions. Newtown Service is listed in the 10 year plan at $30 million for "improvements to restore rail service". Is that like dusting things off and getting the trains back on the old tracks? I would even be in favor of a "Riverline" type op using LRV's and terminate at Fox Chase. Would that be permitted with the crossover at Ayers?

Bottom line: SEPTA is broke, people in the burbs are not interested, they like cars better, it sadly won't happen. There's too much ahead of it anyway.

[limejuice]

Now that the Pitcairns are dead and gone, why not bring back service to Newtown? Let's run some catenary and throw a Silverliner on there.

How much would it cost to replace ties and crossings? How much for new signaling? How much for electrification?

How much to bring this line back!?

Perhaps we should all write to Bill Gates and beg him to donate a billion or two for the Newtown line.

Like I said on the old forum - is there any real evidence of the Pitcairns blocking service on the line, or have they just been scapegoated because they have money? It seems to me that service stopped because 1. Peak ridership was about two passengers 2. All diesel service on the system was ended because of the closing of Reading Terminal. Electrification of the line ended at the city line because the city paid for the electrification.

The only real advantage of electrifying the line now, would be having the one seat ride to center city. Catenary is very costly to build and maintain. Might as well get some refurb'ed RDC's from Canada and fill 'er up with diesel. Can't imagine the electric bill would be much cheaper, if at all. Throw on the cost of maintaining those wires, and diesel's a no-brainer. Why do you think Conrail ditched the juice? Because their operating costs weren't subsidized like the passenger lines are. And I don't think the transfer is too big of a deal. There's two tracks at Fox Chase. A southbound RDC from Newtown can pull onto one, and passengers can cross a covered high level platform into a waiting Silverliner.

As for costs of restoration, I'm not really sure. I heard a rough figure of $1 Million per mile for raw railroad contruction. That doesn't count grade crossings, signals, turnouts, etc. though. Electrifying is another $1 Million per mile, not including substations. I can't be sure of these numbers though, I think I read them in a post on the old forum. And I'm sure Bill Gates has better things to spend money on than restoring a railroad for a transit authority that doesn't seem fit to handle it.

[efin98]

A cross platform transfer is no big deal, other agencies do it for their branch lines.
What I would like to know is, is there precident for an all electric line operator like SEPTA starting up an all-diesel line? Does SEPTA have the space in their maintnence facility for diesel specific maintnence? Do they have enough space for a fueling station? Also is ridership going to be there that would allow for further extention of the catenary system and building another substation and yard in the future?
$1million per mile isn't too bad, especially for a brand new service an a service that is other than

[Marte]

In Northampton Township, a $78 million high school was just built...looks like the Taj Mahal; has swimming pool & acres & acres of manicured grounds. Same township is in the midst of building a posh senior center & park. The Township also installed a $750,000.00 landscaped fountain & clock with landscaping - Just For Show in Richboro!!! Talk about taxpayer waste!!!

Most Philly residents pay under $2,000 for yearly property taxes. Northampton & Newtown residents pay somewhere around $8,000 to $18,000 yearly in property taxes.

I think SEPTA should go all the way with electric service, two-seaters, etc. and think "Prosperity," not "Cheap." SEPTA should not be shy in asking Bucks County to supply modern stations along the way, walkways to the stations, paved parking lots and all the fancy stuff that would go along with re-building the Newtown Rail Line.

Will this line attract riders? You Bet! Residents in Bucks County aren't in love with cars - they just don't have many choices for public transporation.

Getting off or transferring trains/modes of travel in a bad neighborhood will not work for these riders, who will be greatly security conscious.

Anyway....I'm So Glad that someone got a thread going again on Newtown. We need this rail line - desperately; not only to connect with Center City, but to connect with 30th Street, where AMTRAK connections can be made, and even connections to the Airport. Who wants to drive to those place? Not me!

[limejuice]

Getting off or transferring trains/modes of travel in a bad neighborhood will not work for these riders, who will be greatly security conscious.

Fox Chase is a fine neighborhood, and there's plenty of room for a high level crossover platform. There might even be room for storage, maintenance, and/or fueling on the east side of the station, where there was once a freight siding.

[SCB2525]

In Northampton Township, a $78 million high school was just built...looks like the Taj Mahal; has swimming pool & acres & acres of manicured grounds.

I attend this school, and you blow it out of proportion. It has no pool and no landscaping whatsoever. An entrance road has yet to be finished (I don't think it will), the football field has yet to get stands. I'll admit it's big (it's still crowded), but its not that great. The stairs from the parking lot have already deteriorated dangerously. I don't know where $78 million went, but it didn't all goto the school.

[queenlnr8]

... but I am sure that a ton of that money went to $1200 toilet seats, if you know what I mean.

I totally agree with Marte in the fact that the townships should be expected to cough up for the stations, so long as SEPTA does the rest of the infrastructure.

They could do it in any fashion they wanted as long as it adheared to guidelines set by SEPTA (high levels, lighting, ticket office, parking etc etc).

This would knock a substantial amount of money off of the top for SEPTA to put 'on the table.'

[efin98]

stations should be the last thing they should worry about, they can alway start off basic like high level plaform with lights and signs only first then add on the ticketing and any other ammenities later. The major issue is the rehabilitation and mode of transit for the line. Solve those problems first and then worry about the stations.

[jfrey40535]

We're going to be waiting a long time unfortunately. SEPTA has $0 for new starts right now, everything they have is geared towards their precious SVM project which Arlen Spector is touting in this election year. And if you look at SEPTA's capital budget, there's a long list of projects ahead of this one. We need the state to step in or a huge Federal grant, but bottom line is Bucks County residents aren't asking for it (loud enough) and most seem content in their cars. Maybe when gas hits $4/gal we'll start to hear some complaints, but by then it will be too late.

It will be interesting to see what happens to public transit here this fall. SEPTA is basing their '05 budget on the premise that Rendell will come through with a big bag of $$ for them, but they are already talking about fare increase/service reduction scenarios. ITs too bad so much of our tax money goes to wasteful projects. Its unbelieveable that everyone in the region cried foul at the pricetag of the Riverline (which is doing well) yet everyone is going along with our "rebuild the middle east" policy which is costing us way too much money for what its accomplished. Seems like everyone in public office thinks things like clocks and wars are great things to spend our money on....Its sad that we will soon be spending more to keep our transit systems secure than what we spend to operate them.

[Marte]

To SBC2525 - Accept my apology for assuming the school had a pool. I remember a Township meeting wherein they were discussing a pool. On the other hand, there are so many acres of land there, and all of the grounds are well kept - mowed, plowed and maintained. They pay someone for doing that work.

Aside from that, you're saying that that HUGE school is crowded! It is estimated that only one third of the households in Northampton Township have kids attending school. That tells us something about population growth over the last 20 years.

It was in 1983 that The Newtown Line was discontinued due to low ridership. I sincerely doubt that low ridership would be a reason to delay re-opening this rail line today.