Silverliner Vs Out of Service - Technical Topics

[Wingnut]

This matter is simply one more in the annals of overseas manufacturers thinking they can build rail equipment to US standards. That they "assemble" foreign designed equipment here and do what they must to otherwise meet the "buy American" provisions of a Federally Funded procurement, does not mean they deliver equipment made for the USA.

Possibly the agencies letting contracts for the equipment are too focused on the "low bid". Maybe it's time to think "best value

Sadly most transit providers are bound by low bid requirements. I hope this and similar disasters leads to changes in the way transit agencies procure rolling stock.

They need to make this right and it has to be very soon. The Rotem plant in South Philadelphia isn't an assembly facility...it's a lemon farm! Just as Amtrak was forced to scrap the armadillos after barely a decade of service, SEPTA will probably have to get rid of these clunkers when they go to Silverliner VI.

[zebrasepta]

It wasn't only SEPTA that had problems with Hyundai Rotem crap, Metorlink is having a problem and also the MBTA is having problems too

[swampoodle]

I'm not surprised at all that they are playing defense particularly because it was not their fault. The defective part was manufactured in Ohio and designed in South Korea. TWU 234 probably has more to loose than anyone else in this whole debacle given that plant employs about 300 people who are all dues paying members.

I was under the impression the Hyundai Plant in S. Philla was down to a skeleton crew...

There certainly are shocking & salacious allegations being made that Septa was aware of the defect & monitoring specific cars which had progressed beyond metal fatigue...

But I don't think Septa is capable of pulling off any bold conspiracies beyond what it does first & foremost every budget... then again the whole announcement & equipment evacuation over the Fourth of July holiday is bit eye-watering...

[pumpers]

Roadmaster, I can't follow your fine print without a good diagram, but I get your main point. Where I was going was, maybe something is out of whack in the design or operation , such as some (unwanted) play or backlash in the lateral direction between the frame and the journal, and some "lateral force in line with the track" is getting transferred to the equalizer and where the equalizer sits on the bearing plate. Assuming it was not designed to withstand such a lateral force, only vertical forces, I could see how after million stop/starts that the equalizer bar could be suffering extreme fatigue where it meets the bearing plate . Pure speculation of course at this point. But often these type of problems are not due to one simple blunder (such as the equalizer at the bearing seat end being made or welded with the wrong metal alloy), but rather some compound effect like A was a little off for some reason, which by itself was no big deal, but then B was put into a regime it wasn't designed for, so it couldn't protect C, ... Jim S

Thanks Roadmaster. More technical details. For the brakes on the trucks to slow down the car, somehow a backwards force has to get applied to the carbody (and transmitted through the system here.) For example, what prevents the equalizer bars from sliding forwards/backwards on the bearing seat when you brake. Is there a pin in there which we can't see in the diagram, is it just friction which stops them from sliding (both hard to believe), or is that "front/back" force directly transferred from the axle bearing (journals?) to the sideframes somehow? Hope this makes some sense. Jim S

If you look at one side of the truck, the two journal boxes and the equalizer are essentially one piece. The equalizer beam is not attached to the truck frame. Keep in mind that the downward force from the weight of the car is: - bolster - truck frame (sideframe) - spring - drop equalizer - journal - axle - wheel. because the weight of the car is transferred to the equalizer beam via the springs, the beam essentially cannot react to any lateral force in line with the track from the truck frame. The journals, which the equalizer beam is attached to, float up and down but are totally contained from lateral movement within the frame and the lateral force is between the journals and the truck frame. The drop equalizer is only reactive to forces up and down, not side to side and the piece is technically isolated from the lateral forces.

[peetahvw]

BilllyPenn has some notes from Denver's RTA
http://billypenn.com/2016/07/06/why-den ... he-tracks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not sure if there's some backhanded schadenfreude from Denver RTA's as they callout specifically not adopting the "Silverliner V" name, and that Denver's stress testing was "a little more thorough" - not to mention of course the praise for Hyundai Rotem.

Interesting to hear Philly has a 7 year warranty, while Denver opted for only 3 (that's confidence in the product I guess...either that or Denver is going to build up their own shops soon with more trains coming online).

Also that the trains in Denver have a completely different equalizer bar design - not for weight purposes but for water gathering prevention

[DutchRailnut]

interesting read on who what where and recourse.
http://planphilly.com/articles/2016/07/ ... -rail-mess" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Gilbert B Norman]

interesting read on who what where and recourse.
http://planphilly.com/articles/2016/07/ ... -rail-mess" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quite a find, Mr. Railnut.

Even if the subcontractor Columbus Steel acknowledges an obligation to "make good", the concern is the ward of a bankruptcy court. "Da Judge", with the wide discretionary authority and with the underlying first obligation to the creditors, could nix the replacement parts and even void applicable warranty provisions. Even if Columbus is directed to honor the warranty it's not a case of "fire up the towmotor, pick 'em off the shelf, and call up CSX to spot some gondolas".

As the article states, the facility is a skeleton. Material must be laid in and workers hired. It's going to take time.

You can be sure the parties will be seeing each other down at Foley Square.

[Spro]

As a Engineer, (not the kind i really want to be, you know... in the cab) the glass is not half full, or empty, but too big or too small. The complexity of a modern transit vehicle and the multiple governing agencies adding their requirements makes for one very complex project. Mating that to sound engineering economics and cost to benefit ratios means that critical areas relay on good engineering with less materials, instead of lets just add more metal that would add a level of being indestructible. Denver was actually smart in buying something all ready to go, rather then it's own unique design.

All that being said, I always cringe with an operator buys a fleet in one shot. Yes, the maintenance and parts savings are real, but when a engineering crisis occurs, all your eggs are in one basket. If something like this happens to the M-8's or the ACS-64's and CDOT and Amtrak are screwed.

SEPTA has a mess on it's hands, both for it's customers, and getting this corrected. This is a classic "designed and tested by management" scenario, with a SEPTA spec company and parts, that is now in chapter 11.

Finding rail assets to use will not get them though this, they should be looking for buses and pick a line and do busatitution on a line or two and use the railcars they have on the longer/busier lines elsewhere.

[scotty269]

Lease agreements almost signed and ready for:

Amtrak
2x ACS64
5x Amfleets

NJT
1x ALP-44
8x Comet cars

MARC
5x passenger cars

New schedule starts July 11th (Monday):
Trenton Line - removing 12 SL-IV and putting 1x NJT and 1x MARC consist (+300 seats)
Trenton/Cornwells/Levittown platforms are being extended with pavement
Warminster line - additional local service between Center City/Glenside (+1440 seats)
Paoli/Thorndale - 3x quick turns between Bryn Mawr using Amfleet equipment
Lansdale/Doylestown - Additional early AM train(s)

Looking at express bus routes from high traffic stations to Center City
Not done leasing equipment - additional equipment possible from Amtrak and other agencies from across country
DNC likely not to affect railroad scheduling/passenger counts

240 trucks total = 37 have no cracks
480 beams total = 264 have cracks
Repair is not likely possible given magnitude of problem, not entirely ruled out (SEPTA and Rotem both came to this conclusion)
If repair is out of questions, Rotem has already sourced steel for new parts.
Trucks are under warranty

Service disruption will likely last through August, at minimum.


Source: Press conference 7/8/16 1:30pm

[34thStreet]

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loc ... FB_PHBrand" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is this article stretching the truth a bit about the cars never being put back into service? I am not as well-versed as many in this thread about the construction of the trucks, but if they really can't be repaired, does that mean its time for a Silverliner VI?

[BandA]

Is it likely a design defect or a manufacturing defect? Or both.

[scotty269]

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loc ... FB_PHBrand

Is this article stretching the truth a bit about the cars never being put back into service? I am not as well-versed as many in this thread about the construction of the trucks, but if they really can't be repaired, does that mean its time for a Silverliner VI?

NBC10 will be correcting their story momentarily.

Edit:

2016-07-08 14_48_28-SEPTA's Cracked Cars May Never be Back in Service _ NBC 10 Philadelphia.png

2016-07-08 14_48_16-SEPTA_ Repairs May Not Be Possible _ NBC 10 Philadelphia.png

[chuchubob]

The article implies that perhaps the steel bars can't be repaired, not that perhaps the cars can't be repaired. If the steel bars can't be repaired, they'll be replaced.

[scotty269]

See above. Article was modified. Originally said SLV cars would never return to service.

[60 Car]

Lease agreements almost signed and ready for:

Amtrak
2x ACS64
5x Amfleets

NJT
1x ALP-44
8x Comet cars

MARC
5x passenger cars

New schedule starts July 11th (Monday):
Trenton Line - removing 12 SL-IV and putting 1x NJT and 1x MARC consist (+300 seats)
Trenton/Cornwells/Levittown platforms are being extended with pavement
Warminster line - additional local service between Center City/Glenside (+1440 seats)
Paoli/Thorndale - 3x quick turns between Bryn Mawr using Amfleet equipment
Lansdale/Doylestown - Additional early AM train(s)

Looking at express bus routes from high traffic stations to Center City
Not done leasing equipment - additional equipment possible from Amtrak and other agencies from across country
DNC likely not to affect railroad scheduling/passenger counts

240 trucks total = 37 have no cracks
480 beams total = 264 have cracks
Repair is not likely possible given magnitude of problem, not entirely ruled out (SEPTA and Rotem both came to this conclusion)
If repair is out of questions, Rotem has already sourced steel for new parts.
Trucks are under warranty

Service disruption will likely last through August, at minimum.


Source: Press conference 7/8/16 1:30pm

Interesting developments on the borrowed equipment front....

We already know the ACS64 will fit anywhere, and the ALP44 will have a sister to keep her company in the shop....

Will the Amfleets fit through the tunnel?
I don't expect height/width to be the problem, what about length? Are they longer than the Bombers?

I guess MARC has a surplus of single levels now?

Now I'll have to get the camera out.