NHSL Extension Meetings / Workshops Announced

[JeffK]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local ... sions.html

Summary of times and locations:

Monday 03/16
Radisson Hotel Valley Forge, Grand Ballroom
1160 First Ave., King of Prussia
2:00-2:30 - Presentation
2:30-4:30 - Workshop

Wednesday 03/25
Doubletree Hotel Valley Forge, Jefferson Ballroom
301 W. DeKalb Pike, King of Prussia

Session 1
4:00-4:30 - Presentation
4:30-6:30 - Workshop

Session 2
6:30-7:00 - Presentation
7:00-8:30 - Workshop

[34thStreet]

Disappointed I can't make the meetings, but kudos to Septa for sending out a mailing to KOP residents about it. Interesting that the mailing showed computer generated images of the NHSL cars rolling down 202 on an elevated structure.... something that residents don't seem to want at all (nor is the local gov't too keen on this either). Septa really seems to be moving forward with this. Almost hard to believe since its been talked about for years.

[JeffK]

I was able to attend the first meeting on Monday. Several of us asked why there was such an emphasis on the 202 routing - it seemed to be mostly that they had done the CGI work for that trunk first, so it got the most press even though as you said it's turning out to be the least-preferred alternative. In addition it's still at a point in the planning phase where 202 has to be given enough weight that SEPTA can prove due-diligence to the feds, etc.

I'm not sure why it's taken so ridiculously long for things to come together but the stars do finally seem to be aligning. For years the local Board of Supervisors included some old-school developers who never met a sprawl they didn't like. They were finally voted out in favor of people who are more willing to recognize residents' concerns. The amount of congestion resulting from those projects that did get approval combined with near-approval of even larger construction apparently reached a tipping point with the voters. Unfortunately the delays have meant that a lot more uncoordinated development is already in place.

The presentation showed a number of adjustments to the branch routings made since the last meetings. In particular some of their population studies showed there would be little usage at the outer ends of the originally-proposed branches. The Gulph Road option was cut back to end near the Casino, and the Moore Road option was moved to First Avenue, to take advantage of plans to rebuild that road and rezone it for denser mixed-use.

My arguably biased opinion is that they did an above-average but not great job of presenting the routes and their alternatives. One aspect that I think SEPTA handled poorly was in allowing various objections to get out of hand rather than either proactively addressing known concerns or addressing objections with direct, fact-based responses. They let themselves get tangled up in perceptions rather than reality, like those attendees who didn't want "big noisy passenger trains". At one point I actually stood up and asked one objector if they'd even SEEN a NHSL car much less ridden in one. "Noooo, but... ". Suffice it to say I buttonholed a couple of the presenters to suggest that they need to do a bit of gentle perception-management. E.g. "quiet electric rail cars running one or two at a time" rather than letting everyone create their own mental images first and then needing to disabuse those who picture the Broadway Limited pulling into the Mall.

[SCB2525]

They let themselves get tangled up in perceptions rather than reality, like those attendees who didn't want "big noisy passenger trains". At one point I actually stood up and asked one objector if they'd even SEEN a NHSL car much less ridden in one. "Noooo, but... ". Suffice it to say I buttonholed a couple of the presenters to suggest that they need to do a bit of gentle perception-management. E.g. "quiet electric rail cars running one or two at a time" rather than letting everyone create their own mental images first and then needing to disabuse those who picture the Broadway Limited pulling into the Mall.

Good on you sir. It's a good point; many suburbanites think of heavy rail trains that blow horns at grade crossings that can be heard for miles. SEPTA needs to get across the point that none of these routes will involve grade crossings, which is the vast majority of noise pollution excepting track noise.

Perhaps they should show a video of people maintaining a conversation as a car passes them or try and get residents along the current line to testify on SEPTA's behalf as to how little the noise is a factor. Or show examples of how property values have increased along similar projects routes.

[JeffK]

Or show examples of how property values have increased along similar projects routes.

That preconception kept coming up too*. I pulled a bit of Lt. Columbo by "naively" asking the presenters about experiences in other cities that had built new lines near existing residential areas. Still, as an interested but non-professional observer I shouldn't need to throw them leading questions about topics they should be addressing up front. It's disturbing that the presenters failed to anticipate the obvious and deal with it before imaginations had a chance to go off the rails**.

(*) Unfortunately but not surprisingly, one person said he was unalterably opposed to the line because it would "bring people from Norristown". I told him to shut up.
(**) Sorry, that simile is too lame to resist ...

[zebrasepta]

I'm pretty sure it's gonna cost more than 500 million that SEPTA says it's gonna cost

http://planphilly.com/articles/2015/03/ ... of-prussia

The lines at the King of Prussia Mall can wrap around counters and outside of shops on Black Fridays and the occasional no-special-color, just-busy Saturdays. The lines at the Auntie Anne’s in the KOP mall can be so bad, the execs at Simon decided to have five of them. The King of Prussia Mall even has two Easter Bunnies, which is two more than most dentists’ kids ever get to see, just because of long queues.

But as bad as the lines at the Mall are, the lines to the Mall can be even worse. Traffic chokes this regally named part of Upper Merion Township, which is why SEPTA is in the middle of a multiyear look at extending a spur line off of the Norristown High Speed Line (NHSL) to service the Mall and the Valley Forge Convention Center and Casino.

Currently, the NHSL travels from 69th Street Station on the Western edge of Philadelphia to Norristown in Montgomery County, serving the Main Line along the way. There is no service in King of Prussia, though, which is home to the second largest shopping mall in the United States and adjacent to Valley Forge National Historical Park. A number of large business parks and the Valley Forge Casino are also in the area, which is home to over 57,000 jobs, making it one of the larger employment centers in the region.

...

And despite some grumblings, the extension has received support from politicians so far. Byron Comati, Director of Strategic Planning at SEPTA, said that both the Upper Merion Township Board of Supervisors and the Montgomery County Commissioners have been supportive of the the extension planning process to date. In a recent interview with PlanPhilly, incoming PennDOT Secretary and former Montgomery County Commissioner Leslie Richards repeatedly expressed support for the plan.

...

SEPTA’s Comati told PlanPhilly that construction would cost about $500 million. SEPTA hopes to pay for half from the Federal Transit Administration’s New Starts program, which is a competitive grant program that pays for up to half of new transportation infrastructure projects.

[34thStreet]

Fascinating, thanks for that information from the meeting. Yes I too have heard from people (in fact I got into a debate with someone on facebook once) who are worried that it will bring "seedy" people from Upper Darby and West Philly into KOP, which is just uninformed. Where do they think the 95/99/124/125 buses are coming from? The main line?

I have also experienced what you did with people not knowing what the NHSL is. Many people it seems have never even noticed that it exists in the township already (albeit skirting the far edge), which is perhaps a compliment to its low impact on the area. Many are assuming that Septa is building the El right down Dekalb, and lets face it, the El really is noisy, but the N-5 cars are a whole different animal so to speak. I agree septa needs to do a better job of promoting it so that people truly understand and can visualize what it is. This would vastly help the public not be so afraid of it.

[Marv95]

Where do they think the 92/99/124/125 buses are coming from? The main line?

Fixed. But yeah the other 3 routes are already bringing in the "element" so what difference would the NHSL make?

[JeffK]

It's sad to realize that what ought to be a rather well-educated area has such a subgroup of people who can't/won't do even basic fact-parsing. Even after being shown computer renderings of the concrete trestles one person kept insisting that "the whole street will be covered just like Kensington". And more than once at prior meetings I've had to push back against some troglodyte who starts ranting about "those people" . Like you said, they simply can't understand that "those people" are already coming to the Mall on buses, AND they're not there to commit crimes - they're going to work just like the rest of us, but often in situations that aren't nearly as cushy as those of us in our nice little offices.

Interestingly a very similar conversation came up at a party over the weekend. Two of our neighbors are environmental scientists and were grumbling about seeing the same attitudes towards remediative projects. Mrs. Dr. Scientist described it as "my mind is made up so stop confusing me with the facts!" Ya gotta wonder how people get into that mode. Dunning-Kruger Syndrome?

[NorthPennLimited]

Forgive my ignorance here......

Is the NHSL the same track gauge as the MFL? Would a NHSL car fit in the subway tunnel if it could travel on the same tracks east of 69th Street?

They both run on third rail, yes?

What would be needed for a one-seat ride from King of Prissia to center city on the NHSL?

[zebrasepta]

Forgive my ignorance here......

Is the NHSL the same track gauge as the MFL? Would a NHSL car fit in the subway tunnel if it could travel on the same tracks east of 69th Street?

They both run on third rail, yes?

What would be needed for a one-seat ride from King of Prissia to center city on the NHSL?

The Track gauge is the same as the Railroad, 4ft, 8.5 inches

[JeffK]

Forgive my ignorance here......
Is the NHSL the same track gauge as the MFL?
Would a NHSL car fit in the subway tunnel if it could travel on the same tracks east of 69th Street?
They both run on third rail, yes?
What would be needed for a one-seat ride from King of Prussia to center city on the NHSL?

Given the lines' proximity, those are questions that a lot of people wonder about. Unfortunately the answers are (1) No, (2) No, (3) Yes ... but, and (4) a LOT:

(1) The MFL uses the (in)famous Pennsylvania Trolley Gauge of 5' 2½" while the NHSL/P&W is standard gauge. That six-inch difference is intentionally small, to prevent the use of mixed gauge.
(2) The NHSL cars are wider, which would preclude interoperability even if the gauges were the same
(3) Both use third rail but NHSL's is over-running and MFL is under-running.
(4) (1) to (3) mean the only option for a one-seat ride would be to do a significant rebuild of one line or the other.

Widening the P&W to trolley gauge wouldn't make much long-term sense because it would prevent future connections to any other standard-gauge line. Six-car MFL trains couldn't use the P&W ROW because of curves, station sizes, etc. Together those constraints would push towards rebuilding the MFL to accept P&W cars rather than the other way around, but regardless the cost and service disruptions would make a rebuild prohibitive.

If anything were to be done to provide service east of Upper Darby, IMO it would involve separate construction parallel to the MFL. One option, proposed many years ago, would be to extend PATCO west of 15th Street to somewhere in West Philadelphia where it could connect to the P&W. A lot of PATCO's design was based on the P&W so interoperability would be far less of an issue. But right now even the much-discussed idea of extending PATCO to University City has become moribund. Without lots of money, lots of political will, and a demonstrable need, I doubt we'll see any eastern connections to the P&W before mid-century ... if then

[MattW]

Forgive my ignorance here......
Is the NHSL the same track gauge as the MFL?
Would a NHSL car fit in the subway tunnel if it could travel on the same tracks east of 69th Street?
They both run on third rail, yes?
What would be needed for a one-seat ride from King of Prussia to center city on the NHSL?

Given the lines' proximity, those are questions that a lot of people wonder about. Unfortunately the answers are (1) No, (2) No, (3) Yes ... but, and (4) a LOT:

(1) The MFL uses the (in)famous Pennsylvania Trolley Gauge of 5' 2½" while the NHSL/P&W is standard gauge. That six-inch difference is intentionally small, to prevent the use of mixed gauge.
(2) The NHSL cars are wider, which would preclude interoperability even if the gauges were the same
(3) Both use third rail but NHSL's is over-running and MFL is under-running.
(4) (1) to (3) mean the only option for a one-seat ride would be to do a significant rebuild of one line or the other.

Widening the P&W to trolley gauge wouldn't make much long-term sense because it would prevent future connections to any other standard-gauge line. Six-car MFL trains couldn't use the P&W ROW because of curves, station sizes, etc. Together those constraints would push towards rebuilding the MFL to accept P&W cars rather than the other way around, but regardless the cost and service disruptions would make a rebuild prohibitive.

If anything were to be done to provide service east of Upper Darby, IMO it would involve separate construction parallel to the MFL. One option, proposed many years ago, would be to extend PATCO west of 15th Street to somewhere in West Philadelphia where it could connect to the P&W. A lot of PATCO's design was based on the P&W so interoperability would be far less of an issue. But right now even the much-discussed idea of extending PATCO to University City has become moribund. Without lots of money, lots of political will, and a demonstrable need, I doubt we'll see any eastern connections to the P&W before mid-century ... if then

Um, well, apparently they did something with MFL cars on NHSL... http://philadelphiaareatraction.com/bud ... 100_01.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No idea what the story is, can anyone enlighten? (Though maybe this is better left to another thread?)

[trackwelder]

Forgive my ignorance here......
Is the NHSL the same track gauge as the MFL?
Would a NHSL car fit in the subway tunnel if it could travel on the same tracks east of 69th Street?
They both run on third rail, yes?
What would be needed for a one-seat ride from King of Prussia to center city on the NHSL?

Given the lines' proximity, those are questions that a lot of people wonder about. Unfortunately the answers are (1) No, (2) No, (3) Yes ... but, and (4) a LOT:

(1) The MFL uses the (in)famous Pennsylvania Trolley Gauge of 5' 2½" while the NHSL/P&W is standard gauge. That six-inch difference is intentionally small, to prevent the use of mixed gauge.
(2) The NHSL cars are wider, which would preclude interoperability even if the gauges were the same
(3) Both use third rail but NHSL's is over-running and MFL is under-running.
(4) (1) to (3) mean the only option for a one-seat ride would be to do a significant rebuild of one line or the other.

Widening the P&W to trolley gauge wouldn't make much long-term sense because it would prevent future connections to any other standard-gauge line. Six-car MFL trains couldn't use the P&W ROW because of curves, station sizes, etc. Together those constraints would push towards rebuilding the MFL to accept P&W cars rather than the other way around, but regardless the cost and service disruptions would make a rebuild prohibitive.

If anything were to be done to provide service east of Upper Darby, IMO it would involve separate construction parallel to the MFL. One option, proposed many years ago, would be to extend PATCO west of 15th Street to somewhere in West Philadelphia where it could connect to the P&W. A lot of PATCO's design was based on the P&W so interoperability would be far less of an issue. But right now even the much-discussed idea of extending PATCO to University City has become moribund. Without lots of money, lots of political will, and a demonstrable need, I doubt we'll see any eastern connections to the P&W before mid-century ... if then

Um, well, apparently they did something with MFL cars on NHSL... http://philadelphiaareatraction.com/bud ... 100_01.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No idea what the story is, can anyone enlighten? (Though maybe this is better left to another thread?)

is that one of the the cta cars that kept the line on life support after the bulltets s--- the bed but before the n5s got here?

[MACTRAXX]

MW:

There were five Market-Frankford Budd 1960 vintage 600 series single unit cars that were modified to operate
on the NHSL back during the late 80s and 1990s primarily - these cars were re-trucked with standard gauge
trucks from retired PATH Class K (1958) cars and with modifications such as outside door ledges and a farebox
allowing a Conductor (these cars - and the CTA cars required two crew members) to collect fares...
This group of five cars would primarily be used on the short Bryn Mawr - 69th Street local runs...

Another interesting observation about these cars is that all five were named after NASA Space Shuttles...
That name could be found lettered below the train operator's window on both sides of these cars...

TW:

There is a remaining pair of CTA cars that has been sitting near the 69th Street shop complex that is supposedly
being saved to be preserved either by a individual or a group that would relocate them - and since they have not
been moved they have fallen victim to vandalism and neglect...

For those who may not remember - SEPTA purchased a group of just-retired CTA 6000 series cars for
for literally scrap value back in the late 80s to alleviate a car shortage and placed them in NHSL service
as a interim measure - along with the five MFSE cars - until the N5 cars replaced them during the 90s...

MACTRAXX