New Siemens Locomotives - Qty 13+5

[Jersey_Mike]

SEPTA could have expanded its capacity with the SL-Vs, but with 40 brand new cars they barely increased the total number of seats since they gave into demands for 2+2 seating. The only thing that split levels have going for them is standing room unless you go 3+2 on both levels.

I'd also like to know what SEPTA will do with 18 new electrics. They don't run enough express trains to use that many unless they want to go full NJT and use Push-pulls on their stop-every-half-mile local services. This is why I am calling this a classic case of "have money, spend money".

[CComMack]

SEPTA could have expanded its capacity with the SL-Vs, but with 40 brand new cars they barely increased the total number of seats since they gave into demands for 2+2 seating. The only thing that split levels have going for them is standing room unless you go 3+2 on both levels.

I'm both entirely cynical and also focused on improving usefulness and ridership in the city/inner suburban zones, so I've always seen the 2+2 zone on the S-Vs as, "this is how we're doing standees regularly from here out". As long as enough people get off in the first couple of stops, it works, unlike the S-IV 3+2 layout where any standees (apart from the unused center vestibule area) result in instant runtime delays and failures to collect fares.

I'd also like to know what SEPTA will do with 18 new electrics. They don't run enough express trains to use that many

The official word is that SEPTA would like to change this. The express trains are consistently among the most heavily patronized, even considering their peak-hour timing, so it makes sense that an increase in peak-hour service would have a large express component to it. Even at off-peak hours, there's an argument for express service cutting runtimes to west-of-Paoli, Delaware, or Trenton, where you have the most direct competition from overbuilt free highways. It doesn't align exactly with what I would prioritize most, but I can definitely see the argument for proceeding like this based on planning for the future (no sense in getting a handful of locos now and another handful in a few years), and the S-IVs having a few more years in them than the AEM-7s.

[bikentransit]

It would be a great thing to see more limited stop trains off peak, namely on the Trenton, Newark and Thorndale lines. If the current schedules were maintained with limited trains augmented in-between, ridership would increase. Also, restoring more inner city stops would be nice as well, namely better service at North Broad, Allegheny and a new Girard station. Bridesburg is also in desperate need of improved facilities.

Why wait for new electric motors to implement this? And if the existing electrics are so bad, what is it that breaks on them so often that makes them unreliable?

[Fan Railer]

It would be a great thing to see more limited stop trains off peak, namely on the Trenton, Newark and Thorndale lines. If the current schedules were maintained with limited trains augmented in-between, ridership would increase. Also, restoring more inner city stops would be nice as well, namely better service at North Broad, Allegheny and a new Girard station. Bridesburg is also in desperate need of improved facilities.

Why wait for new electric motors to implement this? And if the existing electrics are so bad, what is it that breaks on them so often that makes them unreliable?

They're old... everything old tends to break more often... and we're not even talking about how well maintained they are.

[NorthPennLimited]

It would be a great thing to see more limited stop trains off peak, namely on the Trenton, Newark and Thorndale lines. If the current schedules were maintained with limited trains augmented in-between, ridership would increase. Also, restoring more inner city stops would be nice as well, namely better service at North Broad, Allegheny and a new Girard station. Bridesburg is also in desperate need of improved facilities.

Why wait for new electric motors to implement this? And if the existing electrics are so bad, what is it that breaks on them so often that makes them unreliable?

They're old... everything old tends to break more often... and we're not even talking about how well maintained they are.

Think of grandpa' old 1987 Buick Le Sabre. It has low mileage, it sits in the garage most of the time and doesn't get out much. Grandpa is on a fixed Government income, so he can't afford preventative maintenance on that old Buick.

Time and the extreme weather dry rot rubber seals and fittings. Moisture and time corrode relays, contacts, diodes, and breakers. Transformers start to leak. Inverters, compressors, fans, and traction motors wear out......the parts just get old.

[bikentransit]

So we can't run more express service now because of dry rotted rubber seals?

[the sarge]

I know someone who works in Metro North capitol planning and when I suggest that certain projects are wasteful he flat out tells me that "if you have the money, you spend the money because you CAN spend the money". I don't agree with that and if public entities that try to save money get their budgets cut then we need to fix our budgeting process.

The other reason SEPTA is looking for new locomotives is because they have Bi-level envy. The AEM's don't have the power to pull bi-level trainsets. Why does SEPTA need bi-levels? Because passengers complain about 3-2 seating. With record ridership SEPTA needs to tell the complainers that if they don't like it they can go drive. Again it comes down to money. If SEPTA is having funding issues why are they spending on luxury items like 2-2 seating? Expansion of service should be their first priority.

Ah, the "I know someone who works for such and such and they said..." statement. So, I am to assume a hearsay quote from a MN rubber stamp totally verifies your argument and substantiates all public spending behavior. OK, fine, - I know a guy that works for SEPTA who told me "We had to put 2-2 seating in the SV's or 101 puppies would die!" There you have it, case closed.

Orrrrrr...... It could be that when polled, the biggest gripe among regular regional rail riders was narrow and 3-2 seating. Not a few, but a vast majority voiced their displeasure. The nerve of SEPTA actually listening to their customers for once instead of fighting back with the draconian (and ignorant) reply of "Deal with it or drive!" If it was only about the money, why install seats in the first place? I understand SEPTA is not operating the "Blue Train", but this is not Tokyo either. Also, saying that "Ridership is at record levels" really means nothing in this respect. What really is a "record level" number? What's is a "record level" in the scope of what more can be done?

I am surprised nobody mentioned that SEPTA put the push-pulls up for sale back in 2005 (Advertised in 2005 for a sale in 2010-2011). It was listed on their website but was nixed by Penndot because they are the ones who actually bought them. I believe the state bought them as a grant to SEPTA so they could retire the last of the Blueliners and allow some of the SIV's to be shopped (The Reading side SIV's trainline and PCB work in the 90's?) When this was advertised, there were no plans to replace them with locomotive hauled trains. It's obvious SEPTA was all about the EMU but changed their minds. The reason for such a change of heart? Maybe:

The express trains are consistently among the most heavily patronized, even considering their peak-hour timing, so it makes sense that an increase in peak-hour service would have a large express component to it. Even at off-peak hours, there's an argument for express service cutting runtimes to west-of-Paoli, Delaware, or Trenton, where you have the most direct competition from overbuilt free highways. It doesn't align exactly with what I would prioritize most, but I can definitely see the argument for proceeding like this based on planning for the future (no sense in getting a handful of locos now and another handful in a few years), and the S-IVs having a few more years in them than the AEM-7s.

This could be what SEPTA is thinking and will be used for justification. Spending money because there is money to spend can apply to some public spending, I won't argue that - there are plenty of cases out there. I once fired 9000 7.62 rounds into the air on September 30th, I get it. But considering that SEPTA wanted to jump the push-pull ship and now wants to buy a new one, shows some evidence that there could be a paradigm shift in equipment and service patterns.

[Clearfield]

But considering that SEPTA wanted to jump the push-pull ship and now wants to buy a new one, shows some evidence that there could be a paradigm shift in equipment and service patterns.

SEPTA needs to predict the future, and that's hard.

Ridership has increased by 50% in the past 10 years.

Last spring they announced a schedule to eliminate lines due to an uncertain cap budget.

A PP consist only has one locomotive that needs to be inspected regularly.

Every MU is considered a locomotive that needs to be inspected regularly.

Operating costs need to be considered.

The ACS64's have 20% more horsepower than the AEM7's which may make them suitable for local service depending on their acceleration curves.

Flexibility is going to be really important as the equipment they buy lasts 35-40 years while ridership trends are fluid.

Although I've NEVER been a fan of 3-2 seating, a bi-level MU (under development across the Delaware) with 3-2 seating would offer considerable capacity and therefore flexibility. Many locals could consist of 1 or two cars.

Edited by an Admin (size taken back to normal).

[sammy2009]

But considering that SEPTA wanted to jump the push-pull ship and now wants to buy a new one, shows some evidence that there could be a paradigm shift in equipment and service patterns.

SEPTA needs to predict the future, and that's hard.

Ridership has increased by 50% in the past 10 years.

Last spring they announced a schedule to eliminate lines due to an uncertain cap budget.

A PP consist only has one locomotive that needs to be inspected regularly.

Every MU is considered a locomotive that needs to be inspected regularly.

Operating costs need to be considered.

The ACS64's have 20% more horsepower than the AEM7's which may make them suitable for local service depending on their acceleration curves.

Flexibility is going to be really important as the equipment they buy lasts 35-40 years while ridership trends are fluid.

Although I've NEVER been a fan of 3-2 seating, a bi-level MU (under development across the Delaware) with 3-2 seating would offer considerable capacity and therefore flexibility. Many locals could consist of 1 or two cars.

I think that is important for SEPTA to predict ridership trends. If the census , and transit federation can do it then so can SEPTA....they need to have that extra equipment to meet those service needs when it comes into play and the trend continues to go increase. ACS64 has more horsepower why not buy it when you have the funds to ? Esp when they are reliable and not just hanging on. I also feel that the push-pulls may be used for local trains also instead of just the express trains. SEPTA is going to want to mix the fleet on the runs.

A 3x2 seat pattern for a bi-level prbly wont be bad....they could maybe make one level have that and the other side of the same level with one seat next to the window. But then again knowing SEPTA they will come up with 4 seat rows on a Multi-Level. lol.

Edited by an Admin (size taken back to normal).

[Jersey_Mike]

Ah, the "I know someone who works for such and such and they said..." statement. So, I am to assume a hearsay quote from a MN rubber stamp totally verifies your argument and substantiates all public spending behavior. OK, fine, - I know a guy that works for SEPTA who told me "We had to put 2-2 seating in the SV's or 101 puppies would die!" There you have it, case closed.

So you're calling me a liar?

Orrrrrr...... It could be that when polled, the biggest gripe among regular regional rail riders was narrow and 3-2 seating. Not a few, but a vast majority voiced their displeasure. The nerve of SEPTA actually listening to their customers for once instead of fighting back with the draconian (and ignorant) reply of "Deal with it or drive!" If it was only about the money, why install seats in the first place? I understand SEPTA is not operating the "Blue Train", but this is not Tokyo either. Also, saying that "Ridership is at record levels" really means nothing in this respect. What really is a "record level" number? What's is a "record level" in the scope of what more can be done?

SEPTA's job is to move people in and out of the city. The more people they move the better job they are doing. SEPTA's ridership is the highest it has been since statistics started being kept in 1979 (31 mil rides then vs 36 mil today). If SEPTA were seeing falling ridership then sure, maybe 2+2 seating could be something that might increase the figures, but if people are flocking to SEPTA with its less expensive 3+2 seating then why change it? SEPTA is a lot like an airline in that its job isn't to cater to the needs of the passengers in so far as passengers keep choosing to ride. If 3+2 seating moves riders more efficiently then 3+2 seating is what the riders get. If they don't like it they can drive, which they aren't because driving is even more unpleasant. Everybody would LOVE to have their own reclining leather chairs on trains, but that doesn't mean they get it.

Regarding the AEM-7s and push-pulls I'm saying that SEPTA should look to the used or rebuild market before it buys new. NJT has a fleet of Comet IIIs sitting idle as well as ALP-44's and 44M's. Amtrak will soon be excessing its AEM-7ACs. You know why most people who win the lottery are broke within 5 years? Because they go out and buy luxury cars instead of properly investing their money. Used engines and locomotives are better value for money. NJT is not a role model.

I'm not a PA resident, but those of you who are should complain to your elected officials about SEPTA's wastefulness.

[Clearfield]

I'm not a PA resident, but those of you who are should complain to your elected officials about SEPTA's wastefulness.

In YOUR humble opinion?

[NorthPennLimited]

You know, this guy is absolutely right.

Let's buy 30 year old USED AEM-7's with 2 million service miles

And some used NJT Locos with some slight water damage, or moss growing on the wheels.

Forget that the major components aren't available on the after market to accommodate a rebuild. Little Johnny just had his first economics class and knows everything.

With the trillions of dollars we (Pennsylvanians) save, we can rebuild north of Fox Chase and run service with hand-me-down locomotive!

I'm sorry I ever doubted your keen business strategy, economics, innovativeness, locomotive mechanical know-how, and railroading expertise.

You Win!

[bikentransit]

Do you have an obsession with something north of Fox Chase?

[Clearfield]

Do you have an obsession with something north of Fox Chase?

Anchorage?

[scotty269]

blah
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I think you're seriously undercutting Clearfield's value and knowledge.