Why Can't SEPTA's Subway System Look Like This?

[JeffK]

Another concept was to extend PATCO westbound and link to the P&W using the old Cardington branch.

It might have been (semi) feasible at the time, given enough will and politics. The two systems are operationally very similar, although IIRC it was determined that PATCO cars probably couldn't operate on the P&W's tighter curves.

Interestingly the proposal would have fulfilled the P&W builders' original plans / dream of a cross-Philly route.

[bikentransit]

SEPTA leaves much to be desired. Their stations offer no ammenities, the new trains are loud, uncomfortable and poorly laid out, and have a terrible fare system. The new fare system that has yet to be deployed is based on obsolete technology.

Take a ride to NJT where stations are open, have restrooms and vendors, easy to buy tickets, spacious and comfortable trains, and reach many more destinations then SEPTA could ever imagine. It leaves one to wonder how SEPTA bought, I mean was awarded that APTA award a few years ago.

[Bill R.]

Assuming any of this could happen (I think we'll be skiing in hell first), what is the reasoning for stopping the MFSE at I-476?

There is not a lot of land available there for any kind of park & ride lot.
Why not extend to Newtown Sq, or better yet, West Chester?

"Skiing in hell"...lmfao! Originally, I had the MFL's western terminus at Newtown Square, but I soon pushed it back to I-476 because of the possibility of a park-and-ride complex.

I was about to ask the same thing. There may be space for a park and ride at 476 & West Chester Pike, but absent that, the ridership along West Chester Pike between 476 and 69th Street is small compared to the existing MFL. I'd say that each 104 bus has 10 to 20 riders that get on or get off at points between 69th Street and Lawrence Rd. A 6-car MFL train extended west of 69th street is likely not worth it. There are also some busy cross streets along West Chester Pike; a long MFL train would need to be in a tunnel or elevated. There is room for a single-track trolley in the median, and it could be a couple cars long, and many people here would love to have that trolley to West Chester back.

I, too, think that trolley travel to West Chester is the absolute best option. When I come up with my trolley map sometime this month, a new Route 104 will definitely be on there.

If you really want to get even deeper into fantasy, and building on loufah's comments about selecting a mode more appropriate to potential passenger utilization, you could:

1) Convert the existing Norristown High Speed Line to Intermediate Capacity Transit System standards, as found in Toronto, Vancouver and Detroit.

2) Build the proposed NHSL King of Prussia branch.

3) Build a new elevated ICTS Line to Newtown Square along West Chester Pike.

4) Build a connecting branch between the proposed Newtown Square line and existing NHSL via the right of way of I-476 with minor deviations for station locations as necessary. Suggested station locations are Marple Road, Roberts Avenue, and Conestoga/Sproul Roads.

Service patterns =

1) 69th Street - Norristown via NHSL

2) 69th Street - Newtown Square via West Chester Pike

3) 69th Street - King of Prussia via I-476 Connecting branch.

Passengers traveling to KoP who board along the existing NHSL can transfer at a common station north of Radnor. Passengers east of I-476 can get directly to King of Prussia without having to backtrack to 69th Street. Passengers west of I-476 can transfer to KoP trains at the first station east of I-476.

[Trackseventeen]

Research the 1912 Taylor Transit Master Plan. Your system, while looking really pretty... is somewhat redundant and unnecessary, especially within city limits. I'm not trying to tout my own horn, but I too did extensive research into the subject... not for a thesis, but because I was bored. I also made a map, I'd link to it... but I can't on this device.. just search my name and posts you'll find it... every line on my map, which is based on extensive studies makes sense and would still be running today.

[wanderer34]

I've stated a million times on this forum that in order for SEPTA to be a first class transportation system in the style of the NYCTA, the MBTA, the CTA/METRA, the Metro/MARC/VRE, and even London's and Paris' mass transit systems, it needs to do the following:

SYSTEMWIDE

-provide free maps for the subway, bus, subway-surface, and commuter rail lines, with each route being color coded for each map.

-provide and maintain electronic Transpass and Daypass dispensers in every subway, and subway-surface stations and Trailpass dispensers in every major rail station (Market East, Suburban, 30th St, University City, Temple University in Phila, Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton, and Phillipsburg, NJ in Lehigh Valley, Reading, Wyomissing, Pottstown, and Norristown in Schuykill Valley, Doylestown, Lansdale, Jenkintown, Fern Rock, Lancaster, Paoli, Ardmore on Main Line, and Chester, Wilmington, and Newark in DE).

-make the Transpass and the Trailpass as a MetroCard-type card with each value stored for each day, week, or month for unlimited travel and transfers, rather than the fare per each ride.

-abolish the fare for transfers and make each transfer for one connecting route (bus, subway train, trolley).

COMMUTER RAIL

-expand the commuter rail lines from Lansdale to Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton, and Phillipsburg, NJ, from Norristown to Pottstown and Reading, from Thorndale to Coatesville and Lancaster, and from Warminster to New Hope, NJ.

-revive the old alphanumeric designation that was in use five years ago (R2 from Warminster/New Hope to West Chester, R3 from Newtown to Kennett Square/Oxford, R5 from Lancaster to Doylestown, R6 from Cynwyd to Reading/Wyomissing via Ft Washington and Plymouth Meeting, R7 from Trenton to Allentown, R8 from Easton/Phillipsburg to Wilmington/Newark, DE).

-redesignate the R1 from the Airport Line to a Sports Line from Jenkintown/Wyncote to Sports Complex/Navy Yard via the 25th St Viaduct.

-an R4 line from Norristown and Philadelphia (30th St) to Coatesville via King of Prussia (???); inspired by the Great Valley light rail line.

-an R9 line from Allentown to Kutztown and Reading.

-double-decker wheelchair accessible trains on the R5, R6, R7, and R8 lines.

-Allow the Bethlehem and the Reading Lines to be converted into a three-track rush-hour express lines in which Amtrak can be able to use the lines via the middle third track inbounds to Phila on AM and outbounds on PM and SEPTA can use rush hour express service from 5AM to 11:30AM inbounds and 3:30PM to 10PM weekdays.

-Allow Amtrak to provide service to Scranton/Wilkes-Barre and Albany, NY via Allentown, Bethlehem, Quakertown, and Lansdale and service to Harrisburg via Lebanon, Reading, Pottstown, and Norristown and via Lancaster and Paoli.

-Add new stations in DE (all new stations in blue: Newark, Brookside, Ogletown, Drummond Hill, Churchmans Crossing, Stanton, Newport, Wilmington, Edgemoor, Bellefonte, Holly Oak, and Claymont.

-possibility of a commuter rail system for downstate DE from Phila (30th St) to Lewes, Rehoboth Beach, and Salisbury, MD via Wilmington, Dover, and Harrington and rush hour service between Harrington, Dover, Wilmington, Chester, and 30th St Station.

SUBWAY LINES

-Extend the BSL from Olney Ave to Jenkintown/Wyncote and from Pattison Ave to Chester via an elevated line. Maintain termini at Fern Rock and 8th -Market.

-Overhaul the Market-Frankford Elevated with a four-track subway from Upper Darby to Woodhaven Rd and termini at Darby-Colwyn, Penns Landing, Forest Hills, and Neshaminy Mall.

-A 5th St/Passyunk Ave four-track subway from Darby-Colwyn to Fox Chase via 63rd St and Lansdowne, PA and the Fox Chase Line.

-A Crosstown Line (four-track express) From Essington, PA to Bensalem via the Airport Line, PRR Main Line, and Erie Ave, with a subway from University City to Frankford, a branch from University City and 30th St to Penns Landing via Arch St and an elevated line from Frankford to Bensalem.

-Convert the current Reading and Chestnut Hill commuter lines for subway use with a three-track line between Norristown and Lehigh Ave-North Philadelphia and a four track subway from Lehigh Ave to University City to South Philadelphia (Delaware Ave).

-An Arch St subway from South St in Penns Landing to Girard Ave (Zoo) via Ben Franklin Pkwy and Kelly Dr and PHL via a high-speed heavy-rail line from South St to 30th St and Airport Line within 15 minutes from CC.

-Convert Route 100, 101, and 102 from trolley lines into heavy rail use a la BSL Kawasaki cars with an underground subway in Media, PA and rail connections to the MFL and the Norristown Line.

-Convert certain stations into express stations (Hunting Park Ave and Lombard-South St), convert some into local stations (Erie Ave, Race-Vine St, Walnut-Locust St), and even add new stations on the expanded BSL (Christian St, Packer Ave, Stenton Ave, 66th Ave).

-Make the BSL-grade subway cars the official and only rolling stock and rail gauge in the SEPTA subway system!!! Reasons being ease of cost plus interchangeability!!!

-Make the BSL City Hall station ADA accessible.

-Make most subway stations in the system have a mezzanine for easy access to inbound and outbound trains (i.e. Erie, Allegheny, Lehigh-North Philadelphia, Susquehanna Dauphin).

-Make token booth clerks carry change whenever there is a cash transaction!!!

SUBWAY SURFACE

-Make all subway surface trolleys and it's underground stations ADA accessible and compliant, as well as making sure all underground stations have fare control turnstiles.

-Rename 36th and 37th St stations into Sansom and Spruce St, respectively.

-Expand the subway-surface system to Bala Cynwyd via Fairmount Park/Parkside Ave, Morris Park via Lansdowne Ave, Overbrook via Lancaster Ave, Cobbs Creek Park via Christian St, and Yeadon via Whitby Ave.

-replace all number designations with letter designations (A - University City Loop via 40th and 42nd St, B - Baltimore Ave, C - Chester Ave, D - Woodland Ave (Darby), E -Elmwood Ave, L - Lancaster Ave, M - Lansdowne Ave (Morris Park), P - Parkside Ave/ Fairmount Park, W - Whitby Ave, X - Christian St).

-Increase capacity by adding two car sets with a flexible connector at some of the busiest lines for rush hour service(Woodland, Elmwood, and possibly Lancaster and Parkside).

-24HR daily service for Woodland, Elmwood, Baltimore, Lancaster, and Parkside Ave lines.

SURFACE (TROLLEYS AND BUSES)

-Extend certain lines (i.e. 60 from 35th - Allegheny to Wissahickon, 54 from 33rd -Dauphin to Bala Cynwyd)

-Adding and replacing new dedicated bus lines for certain streets (i.e. 9 -via South 9th St, 21 - via 21st/22nd St, 62 - via Columbia/Cecil B Moore Ave, 57 - via York St/Kensington Ave).

-Adding new trolleybus lines (i. e. 40 - Allens Ln Station to Cottman-Torresdale via Wissahickon, Erie Aves and 79 - Bainbridge-Schuykill to Pier 40 via Christian St).

-Making a branch of the 23 trolley from Rising Sun Ave and Germantown Ave to Broad-Olney via Old York Rd.

-Another trolley branch of the 15 trolley to from 40th St and Girard Ave to the Mann Center.

-Placing bus shelters at major intersections in the city.

-Allow the LUCY buses to run until 11:30 PM.

-Cancel certain bus routes and replace them with more direct bus routes (H, XH, 26 come to mind) which will act as feeders to subway routes.

-Certain bus loops might be sold for real estate development (i.e. 5th and Godfrey, 35th and Allegheny).

-Sell bus depot at 27th and Allegheny and replace it with one on possibly nearby Rt. 1 and sell old bus depot for mid-rise development.

-Create new bus depots in Roxborough, Germantown, Fox Chase, and Torresdale for outlying communities as well as some in Lower Bucks, Montco, and Delco. Allow Chester County to create its own bus system.

-Renumeration for certain lines (i.e. 1 - Broad St, 55 - Wyoming Ave, 5 -5th/6th Sts).

[AlexC]

Great post, but if this degenerates into another Newtown thread, (you know who you are) I will lock it and delete it.

[ChrisinAbington]

I've stated a million times on this forum that in order for SEPTA to be a first class transportation system in the style of the NYCTA, the MBTA, the CTA/METRA, the Metro/MARC/VRE, and even London's and Paris' mass transit systems, it needs to do the following:
SUBWAY LINES
-Extend the BSL from Olney Ave to Jenkintown/Wyncote

Ha-ha-ha-ha. And to think of the stink they made about the garage. This proposal/demand would make for an entertaining public meeting to say the least in that town! I'd hear the howls all the way up in Roslyn.

[SCB2525]

I think the days of rapid transit being expanded into a suburb where commuter rail already exists are over. The P&W and Media/Sharon Hill trolleys would NEVER be built today. Thank your lucky stars that Red Arrow held out 20-50 years longer than most suburban trolley/interurban companies and had a chance to be taken over by a public agency.

[SCB2525]

-make the Transpass and the Trailpass as a MetroCard-type card with each value stored for each day, week, or month for unlimited travel and transfers, rather than the fare per each ride.

On its way.

-abolish the fare for transfers and make each transfer for one connecting route (bus, subway train, trolley).

I agree wholeheartedly. Free transfers did wonderful things in NYC, including an immediate jump and steady increase thereafter in ridership. Here, it would also help to fill in the BSL and take a load off the N/S bus routes.

-expand the commuter rail lines from Lansdale to Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton, and Phillipsburg, NJ, from Norristown to Pottstown and Reading, from Thorndale to Coatesville and Lancaster, and from Warminster to New Hope, NJ.

Your biggest stumbling block is the state and local governments.

-revive the old alphanumeric designation that was in use five years ago (R2 from Warminster/New Hope to West Chester, R3 from Newtown to Kennett Square/Oxford, R5 from Lancaster to Doylestown, R6 from Cynwyd to Reading/Wyomissing via Ft Washington and Plymouth Meeting, R7 from Trenton to Allentown, R8 from Easton/Phillipsburg to Wilmington/Newark, DE).

via Ft Washington and Plymouth Meeting? via The Trenton Cutoff? Why?

Not only are you leaving the already owned Stony Creek Branch go fallow, you've abandoned the lower half and upper extreme of the Norristown line. You've also left the Cynwyd branch a dinky that still terminates in Cynwyd? Why? 2 Different lines from the Allentown/Easton area? Why/how/what routing? Have you revived the Bel-Del or Perkiomen Branch?

-redesignate the R1 from the Airport Line to a Sports Line from Jenkintown/Wyncote to Sports Complex/Navy Yard via the 25th St Viaduct.

Line is freight-owned, event-based regional rail service would have little benefit. Re-purposing the 25th St Viaduct would make more sense as rapid-transit.

-an R4 line from Norristown and Philadelphia (30th St) to Coatesville via King of Prussia (???); inspired by the Great Valley light rail line.

I know of no "Great Valley Light Rail" proposal. Such a line would have to make awkward use of the former Chester Valley Branch (recently abandoned and sold outright to Montgomery County) and/or current NHSL track. No go. You may be referring to the "Greenline" proposal which was to make use of the Phoenixville Industrial Track from Oaks to Paoli. This would make considerably more sense.[/quote]

More analysis to come...

[wanderer34]

-make the Transpass and the Trailpass as a MetroCard-type card with each value stored for each day, week, or month for unlimited travel and transfers, rather than the fare per each ride.

On its way.

-abolish the fare for transfers and make each transfer for one connecting route (bus, subway train, trolley).

I agree wholeheartedly. Free transfers did wonderful things in NYC, including an immediate jump and steady increase thereafter in ridership. Here, it would also help to fill in the BSL and take a load off the N/S bus routes.

-expand the commuter rail lines from Lansdale to Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton, and Phillipsburg, NJ, from Norristown to Pottstown and Reading, from Thorndale to Coatesville and Lancaster, and from Warminster to New Hope, NJ.

Your biggest stumbling block is the state and local governments.

I can agree, but I see SEPTA as the real obstacle, plus some of the land-owning and rich families that own land nearby the ROW's. They should be the very last ones that should even talk about "railroad noise", especially since they own land nearby railroad tracks. Rather than dismantling service in the 80's and 90's, this system should already be a reality by now!!!

-revive the old alphanumeric designation that was in use five years ago (R2 from Warminster/New Hope to West Chester, R3 from Newtown to Kennett Square/Oxford, R5 from Lancaster to Doylestown, R6 from Cynwyd to Reading/Wyomissing via Ft Washington and Plymouth Meeting, R7 from Trenton to Allentown, R8 from Easton/Phillipsburg to Wilmington/Newark, DE).

via Ft Washington and Plymouth Meeting? via The Trenton Cutoff? Why?

Not only are you leaving the already owned Stony Creek Branch go fallow, you've abandoned the lower half and upper extreme of the Norristown line. You've also left the Cynwyd branch a dinky that still terminates in Cynwyd? Why? 2 Different lines from the Allentown/Easton area? Why/how/what routing? Have you revived the Bel-Del or Perkiomen Branch?

The Norristown Line won't be abandoned; it will just be converted into the subway system as well as the Chestnut Hill lines!!! The New R6 will use Cynwyd as it's southern terminus and Reading as it's northern terminus. The difference is that there will be a new three-track line parallel the CSX line between Ft Washington and Norristown which will be operated by SEPTA and Amtrak (optional)and plus peak rush hour service; that's the reason for the third track - to speed up service.

And for the Lehigh Valley, you have to look at where the old Bethlehem Line splits up after Hellertown. It makes two branches, with the western branch headed to Bethlehem and Allentown, and a eastern branch headed to Easton and Phillipsburg, NJ. It's not complicated at all. Plus you do need two lines, as Allentown and Easton are almost 30 min apart and are on opposite ends of the Lehigh Valley.

The LV is currently the fastest growing area in the state, so it needs to upgrade it's transportation infrastructure in order for the state (not just LV) to remain competetive. The LV, Berks, Lancaster, and the five-county Philadelphia are needs a few more limited access expressway improvements, but it's rail (and high-speed rail, either freight or passenger) which needs to be the primary investment in this state if Pennsylvania is the compete with not just NY, NJ, MA, and IL, but with FL, TX, CA, and much of the south.

PA was once the second largest state behind NY in the last turn of the century to the 1960's, and a lot of industries in Pittsburgh, Altoona, Johnstown, Erie, Scranton,, Allentown, and Philadelphia blossomed. This was the first state to embark on an oil boom, and now we have a natural gas boom (which I feel should be taxed). Back in the first half of the 20th century, rail was the way to go before airplanes made their mark after 1950.

In the 1950's the Japanese invented the bullet train, which cut travel times between Tokyo and Osaka from 8 hours to 4.If we can have a high speed rail program which can cut travel time between PHL and PGH into half, it wouldn't just help the state, it would greatly help the Northeast and Midwest economies, and eventually the whole country!!!

-redesignate the R1 from the Airport Line to a Sports Line from Jenkintown/Wyncote to Sports Complex/Navy Yard via the 25th St Viaduct.

Line is freight-owned, event-based regional rail service would have little benefit. Re-purposing the 25th St Viaduct would make more sense as rapid-transit.

I've always had a respect for freight rail and the 25th St Viaduct can be shared by CSX and SEPTA. All the viaduct needs is to be repaired again because driving through 25th St, you can see chunks of concrete popping out from the columns. That needs to be rectified if we're going to be using the viaduct for any type of passenger service. I've already proposed two extra subway lines in South Phila, which in my opinion, would have condos around the riverfront and co-operatives around certain areas so we might as well expand the subway system in that part of the city!!!

-an R4 line from Norristown and Philadelphia (30th St) to Coatesville via King of Prussia (???); inspired by the Great Valley light rail line.

I know of no "Great Valley Light Rail" proposal. Such a line would have to make awkward use of the former Chester Valley Branch (recently abandoned and sold outright to Montgomery County) and/or current NHSL track. No go. You may be referring to the "Greenline" proposal which was to make use of the Phoenixville Industrial Track from Oaks to Paoli. This would make considerably more sense.

I thought about it and considered the line to be superfluous, but I don't see the line as that bad, considering the KOP mall is supposedly the largest consumer center in the Phila market, although Center City is gaining, it would help since Willow Grove Mall does have a rail station nearby it's vicinity. I think the only way to make the line work is to connect it to Philadelphia.

[Bettertransitphilly]

With more people living in the city and the repopulation of South Philly, my top 3 are:
Boulevard line extension terminating near Woodhaven Road-it's been studied to death and would serve 30% of th city's population sorely underserved by rail.

Use of the 25th street viaduct to provide elevated service to South Philly but start out as the line from Roxborough down 29th to the Art Museum down the Parkway down 22nd as a subway rising up and over at Washington.

Finally the big pipe dream. Focusing on providing subway service in the denses core. A circle line. Spring Garden to Delaware Ave down to Wasington across to University Ave to 38th to Spring Garden across the river continuing on Spring Garden. The circle line connects the major employment hubs of university city to growing neighborhoods to the waterfont and encourage development along East Spring Garden and Washington Ave.

[Push&Pull Master]

I've stated a million times on this forum that in order for SEPTA to be a first class transportation system in the style of the NYCTA, the MBTA, the CTA/METRA, the Metro/MARC/VRE, and even London's and Paris' mass transit systems, it needs to do the following:
SUBWAY LINES
-Extend the BSL from Olney Ave to Jenkintown/Wyncote

Ha-ha-ha-ha. And to think of the stink they made about the garage. This proposal/demand would make for an entertaining public meeting to say the least in that town! I'd hear the howls all the way up in Roslyn.

I don't think the neighborhood could handle a transportation center as the infamous parking garage would probably end up in the plan. But, I would support an extension of the BSL up to Cheltenham and Ogontz with a redevelopment of the parking lot at Cheltenham Square Mall. The Ridge Ave subway to Andorra would also be a major addition to the subway system.

[wanderer34]

I've stated a million times on this forum that in order for SEPTA to be a first class transportation system in the style of the NYCTA, the MBTA, the CTA/METRA, the Metro/MARC/VRE, and even London's and Paris' mass transit systems, it needs to do the following:
SUBWAY LINES
-Extend the BSL from Olney Ave to Jenkintown/Wyncote

Ha-ha-ha-ha. And to think of the stink they made about the garage. This proposal/demand would make for an entertaining public meeting to say the least in that town! I'd hear the howls all the way up in Roslyn.

I don't think the neighborhood could handle a transportation center as the infamous parking garage would probably end up in the plan. But, I would support an extension of the BSL up to Cheltenham and Ogontz with a redevelopment of the parking lot at Cheltenham Square Mall. The Ridge Ave subway to Andorra would also be a major addition to the subway system.

I think J'town would make a perfect transportation hub (commuter rail, local bus, and subway) as long as proper planning is implemented for that area, meaning that you would have to create TOD (mainly residential mid-rise condos, cooperatives, and apartments with underground parking garages for residents), since you already have commercial areas, mainly on Old York Rd in Jenkintown and nearby Township Line Rd. This idea would relieve Olney TC of some bus lines and transfer some of those bus lines serving suburbs like Doylestown, Warrington, and Ft Washington to Jenkintown-Wyncote.

A BSL extension to Cheltenham-Ogontz is a head scratcher for me. It's not a bad idea, but what about certain bus routes like the 6 (Ogontz Ave), the 22 (Wadsworth and Stenton Aves), the H and the XH (both of which should be abolished in favor of east-west lines serving NW Phila and acting as feeder lines for the Chestnut Hill and Roxborough-Norristown mass transit lines??? If you want to extend the BSL to Cheltenham-Ogontz (which I believe was originally planned somewhere in the 1920's), it's not bad, but I just see my Jenkintown transit hub as a better deal, IMHO!!!

I tend to see parts of NW and especially NE Phila sort of like Queens and parts of Brooklyn like East Flatbush, Flatlands, and Marine Park in NYC, Roslindale, Hyde Park and West Roxbury in Boston, and parts of the South Side in Chicago in that those parts have very good bus coverage and service, but practically no rail service whatsoever. I feel the MBTA is doing a very good job at least by planning to convert one of it's commuter rail lines (the Fairmount line) into a subway line, and NYC had already converted several commuter rail lines into it's subway system (the Rockaway line in Queens, the Canarsie line, the Brighton line, the Culver, and the Sea Beach lines in Brooklyn, and the Dyre Ave line in the Bronx). All the CTA had to do was to create it's own lines since it was (and still is) THE American railroad hub, meaning a lot of rail companies, such as the PRR, the NYC, the B&O, the IC, the Milwaukee Road, and the Union Pacific had stations all over Chicagoland, so in certain areas like the North Side, the predecessor to the CTA had a good share of the local market, meanwhile in the South Side areas like Hyde Park, Beverly, Pullman, and East Chicago, you already had commuter rail stations competing with the CTA, which is why there's only two major lines in the South Side in comparison to five lines in the North Side and three in the West Side.

I feel SEPTA had a lot of chances to convert several lines that are currently in use by it's commuter rail division, and the city of Phila and the five-county region had many opportunities to transform SEPTA into a major regional asset the same way that the MTA and the PANYNJ are to NYC, the MBTA is to Boston, NJT for NJ, and Metro/MARC/VRE is for the Washington/Baltimore areas, and during the 70's to last decade, it's been squandered due to bad management, politics, corruption, cuts in service, greed, and most important, apathy, because you can't ask and demand for first-class service with third-class management and that's what SEPTA is: a glorified bus company which had no choice but to run our mass system.

If we had stronger leadership (not just in SEPTA, but in City Hall, the suburban counties, and in Harrisburg), people would be up in arms over how SEPTA is being run into the ground due to higher fares, abysmal service, no service in important communities (Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton, Reading, Lancaster, West Chester, etc.), and a transit agency content with running inefficient bus lines to communities where there was once train service, and you wonder why people in SE PA would rather drive to Philly than rely on SEPTA.

Phila was once the home of two of the best railroads this country has ever seen and had the best local (as well as national) railroad system in the country (I should add the Lehigh Valley Railroad to this discussion, even though it's technically a NYC company), and while NYC, Long Island, and practically all of North and Central Jersey has rail service radiating out from NYC, in Phila, all we have is one commuter line going to and from Atlantic City and a high speed line from Center City to Lindenwold (which should be expanded according to it original plan to Maple Shade, Cherry Hill, Woodbury, and Deptford, NOT LIGHT RAIL OF ANY SORT;KISS - KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID).

All I'm saying is that in order for SEPTA to get it's house in order, it needs to provide much better service and coverage plus it needs to be mindful of commuters who live in far flung areas and do everything to provide commuter rail service, not slow local bus service (i. e. Norristown to Pottstown). SEPTA also needs to upgrade it's customer service by installing TransPass/TrailPass electronic dispensers, free system bus maps, free transfers, and giving change to commuters during cash transactions!!!

[Push&Pull Master]

I've stated a million times on this forum that in order for SEPTA to be a first class transportation system in the style of the NYCTA, the MBTA, the CTA/METRA, the Metro/MARC/VRE, and even London's and Paris' mass transit systems, it needs to do the following:
SUBWAY LINES
-Extend the BSL from Olney Ave to Jenkintown/Wyncote

Ha-ha-ha-ha. And to think of the stink they made about the garage. This proposal/demand would make for an entertaining public meeting to say the least in that town! I'd hear the howls all the way up in Roslyn.

I don't think the neighborhood could handle a transportation center as the infamous parking garage would probably end up in the plan. But, I would support an extension of the BSL up to Cheltenham and Ogontz with a redevelopment of the parking lot at Cheltenham Square Mall. The Ridge Ave subway to Andorra would also be a major addition to the subway system.

I think J'town would make a perfect transportation hub (commuter rail, local bus, and subway) as long as proper planning is implemented for that area, meaning that you would have to create TOD (mainly residential mid-rise condos, cooperatives, and apartments with underground parking garages for residents), since you already have commercial areas, mainly on Old York Rd in Jenkintown and nearby Township Line Rd. This idea would relieve Olney TC of some bus lines and transfer some of those bus lines serving suburbs like Doylestown, Warrington, and Ft Washington to Jenkintown-Wyncote.

A BSL extension to Cheltenham-Ogontz is a head scratcher for me. It's not a bad idea, but what about certain bus routes like the 6 (Ogontz Ave), the 22 (Wadsworth and Stenton Aves), the H and the XH (both of which should be abolished in favor of east-west lines serving NW Phila and acting as feeder lines for the Chestnut Hill and Roxborough-Norristown mass transit lines??? If you want to extend the BSL to Cheltenham-Ogontz (which I believe was originally planned somewhere in the 1920's), it's not bad, but I just see my Jenkintown transit hub as a better deal, IMHO!!!

I tend to see parts of NW and especially NE Phila sort of like Queens and parts of Brooklyn like East Flatbush, Flatlands, and Marine Park in NYC, Roslindale, Hyde Park and West Roxbury in Boston, and parts of the South Side in Chicago in that those parts have very good bus coverage and service, but practically no rail service whatsoever. I feel the MBTA is doing a very good job at least by planning to convert one of it's commuter rail lines (the Fairmount line) into a subway line, and NYC had already converted several commuter rail lines into it's subway system (the Rockaway line in Queens, the Canarsie line, the Brighton line, the Culver, and the Sea Beach lines in Brooklyn, and the Dyre Ave line in the Bronx). All the CTA had to do was to create it's own lines since it was (and still is) THE American railroad hub, meaning a lot of rail companies, such as the PRR, the NYC, the B&O, the IC, the Milwaukee Road, and the Union Pacific had stations all over Chicagoland, so in certain areas like the North Side, the predecessor to the CTA had a good share of the local market, meanwhile in the South Side areas like Hyde Park, Beverly, Pullman, and East Chicago, you already had commuter rail stations competing with the CTA, which is why there's only two major lines in the South Side in comparison to five lines in the North Side and three in the West Side.

I feel SEPTA had a lot of chances to convert several lines that are currently in use by it's commuter rail division, and the city of Phila and the five-county region had many opportunities to transform SEPTA into a major regional asset the same way that the MTA and the PANYNJ are to NYC, the MBTA is to Boston, NJT for NJ, and Metro/MARC/VRE is for the Washington/Baltimore areas, and during the 70's to last decade, it's been squandered due to bad management, politics, corruption, cuts in service, greed, and most important, apathy, because you can't ask and demand for first-class service with third-class management and that's what SEPTA is: a glorified bus company which had no choice but to run our mass system.

If we had stronger leadership (not just in SEPTA, but in City Hall, the suburban counties, and in Harrisburg), people would be up in arms over how SEPTA is being run into the ground due to higher fares, abysmal service, no service in important communities (Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton, Reading, Lancaster, West Chester, etc.), and a transit agency content with running inefficient bus lines to communities where there was once train service, and you wonder why people in SE PA would rather drive to Philly than rely on SEPTA.

Phila was once the home of two of the best railroads this country has ever seen and had the best local (as well as national) railroad system in the country (I should add the Lehigh Valley Railroad to this discussion, even though it's technically a NYC company), and while NYC, Long Island, and practically all of North and Central Jersey has rail service radiating out from NYC, in Phila, all we have is one commuter line going to and from Atlantic City and a high speed line from Center City to Lindenwold (which should be expanded according to it original plan to Maple Shade, Cherry Hill, Woodbury, and Deptford, NOT LIGHT RAIL OF ANY SORT;KISS - KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID).

All I'm saying is that in order for SEPTA to get it's house in order, it needs to provide much better service and coverage plus it needs to be mindful of commuters who live in far flung areas and do everything to provide commuter rail service, not slow local bus service (i. e. Norristown to Pottstown). SEPTA also needs to upgrade it's customer service by installing TransPass/TrailPass electronic dispensers, free system bus maps, free transfers, and giving change to commuters during cash transactions!!!

Jenkintown is a good hub on a transit map, but not when you take streets and neighborhood characteristics into consideration. The station is accessed by residential streets, which are already at capacity with the RR station and you can't widen those roads so that's one flaw. Another problem is the residents in that neighborhood would go ballistic with that proposal since they have made it clear they don't want J'town becoming a hub. I know you will disagree with me, but I think Chelteham/Ogontz or Noble would make more sense which could add a subway station in downtown J'town. However, any extension up the 611 corridor into Montco would probably hurt RR ridership. However, your ideas actually are pretty cool proposals.

[PhilliesPhan2013]

I hate to give this old thread new life, but here it goes...

I have completely revamped my subway map since posting this thread nearly a year ago. Firstly, I moved over to Google My Maps from Scribble Maps. Secondly, I incorporated reusing a lot more existing infrastructure in my new plan.

Here is the link to the map: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... ajKLTtA5XQ

Lines:
Broad Street Line: Cheltenham-Ogontz Terminal to Gloucester City, NJ
Broad-Ridge Spur: Fern Rock to 8th and Market via divergence at Fairmount
Roosevelt Boulevard Subway/Elevated: Divergence at Erie on BSL main line to Southampton Road
Market-Frankford Line: 69th Street Terminal to Harbison Terminal
Front-Chestnut Line: Sports Complex to Belmont Park-and-Ride
Woodland Avenue Subway/Elevated: Sports Complex to Darby Transportation Center
PATCO: Lindenwold to PHL Terminal A/A West
Andorra Line: Center City Loop to Andorra (Ridge Avenue and Cathedral Road)
Chestnut Hill Line: Center City Loop to Chestnut Hill (along current CHW ROW)

All of these new lines will bring the SEPTA heavy rail system to about 104-105 miles.