Railroad Forums 

  • Asking Philosophically: Why Does SEPTA Suck So Badly?

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

 #1279778  by Mumphrey O. Yamm
 
I’m fairly new to this site, and I don’t know an awful ot about how transit authorities work, so this might seem elemernatary to many here, but I really don’t understand why SEPTA sucks so badly.

I grew up along the what was then the R3 to West Chester. I was kind of in awe as a kid of what SEPTA did (as far as I could see). They ran trains, scores of them, every day to Philadelphia and back, within a fourth of a mile from my back yard. When I went by the station, I saw the big map with all the lines reaching out in every direction from downtown Philadelphia. To me it was, in the literal sense, awesome.

Then they cut the line back from West Chester to Elwyn. It saddned me, but, in the same way that a child who follows a bad baseball team will believe the management when they say that they know what they’re doing, and that the team is only a little tinkering short of being a contender, I believed SEPTA when they said they knew what they were doing, and that the trains would soon be running back to West Chester.

It wasn’t until I moved away and saw some other transit authorities that I came to see how bad SEPTA is. It has now been 28 years since SEPTA gave up on running trains to West Chester. In that time, New Jersey Transit took over AMTRAK’s Atlantic City line and lengthened the line into 30th Street Station, and lengthened eletrification of the North Jersey Coast Line by 16 miles. They opened the River Line. They built the Secaucus Junction Station and are slowly laying track along the Lackawanna Cutoff, and will in time run trains to East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania and, later, to Scranton.

Sine SEPTA cut the West Chester Branch by half, Virginia Rail Express began service, and now runs trains from Washington, D.C. to manassas and to Fredericksburg. The Fredericksburg Line, 55 miles long, is longer than any of SEPTA’s routes. The Manassas line, at 35 miles, is longer than all but two of SEPTA’s lines (The Doylestown line is a fraction of a mile longer, and the Newark line is about three miles longer). The only expansion that SEPTA has undertaken in this time is to extend the R2 from Marcus Hook Line to Wilmington and then to Newark, and to lengthen the R5 from Downingtown to Parkesburg (since cut back to Thorndale).

People have been asking for SEPTA to run trains back to West Chester for 28 years now. Newtown has been waiting for 31 years. People in Phoenixville, Pottstown and Quakertown haven’t had service for 33 years. SEPTA cut its R6 back from Ivy Ridge to Cynwyd in 1986, claiming that the Pencoyd Bridge was unsafe. The bridge was fixed by 1999, but SEPTA never ran trains back out to Ivy Ridge. Instead they tore up the track.

None of this is news to anybody here, I know that. And I can understand the defeatism everybody who deals with SEPTA feels. Any question of expanding service is waved away as hopeless because of SEPTA’s attitude. What I don’t understand is what the problem with SEPTA really is. Anybody, or any organization, when faced with a project, can either ask, “How can we get this done?” or say, “We can’t do this.” SEPTA reflexively says, “We can’t do this. It’s too hard.” How did this come to be? How did a public transportation authority become an institution that’s utterly hostile to public transportation?

And, yeah, I understand that when the state legislature brought SEPTA into being, it didn’t help that they gave it no power to tax, and no authority in many of the places that it was responsible for serving. That couldn’t have made life easy for the people running SEPTA. But everybody has hurdles to overcome; every organization has to deal with overcoming hardships. How is it that SEPTA is so (seemingly) singularly incapable of overcoming the smallest problem? SEPTA’s first answer to any problem that crops up is, “Well, let’s just give up on this.” They’ve made it their institutional philosophy. How did this happen?

And beyond that, what can people in and around Philadelphia do about it? Surely if people in Northern Virginia can bring two passenger lines into being, the people SEPTA “serves” can do something. If people in New Jersey can get trains running from Camden to Trenton, can’t people in Pennsylvania get some kind of improvement? I know that a lot of people here will smirk at my simplemindedness; I’m not a railroad historian or in the railroad business, so Lord knows, there’s a lot I don’t know or understand. But all the same, I just think it’s nuts to think that it’s utterly impossible to get trains running 15 miles from Elwyn to West Chester, or from Fox Chase to Newtown. How can this be so hard?
 #1279783  by Push&Pull Master
 
In my opinion, I feel that Septa tries its best to expand services. What restricts SEPTA from expanding its rail lines is funding. In the past, Septa has received around $300-400 million a year while agencies like NJ Transit receive close to $1 billion a year. Fortunately, Septa now has a dedicated funding source through Act 89 so maybe they will be able to significantly expand the system after they replace all of the crumbling infrastructure on the current lines.

Long Range Expansion Plans:
Elwyn to Wawa (2020)
King of Prussia NHSL Spur (2025-2030)
Lansdale-Pennridge
Roosevelt Blvd BRT
City Branch
BSL Extension to Navy Yard
Thorndale to Atglen

I apologize if this response isn't very specific or accurate because I honestly don't know as much about Septa as some people on this forum. Also, the advanced search function will definitely be able to help you out somewhat.
 #1279798  by BPP1999
 
Great post. Exactly how I feel (though in fairness SEPTA's regional rail network really is damn good, it just needs some service restoration). The citizenry simply shrugs their shoulders at the notion of rail service restoration, usually with a "Yeah, that would be nice," followed by "What do you think about the weather?" For whatever reason it's not on people's collective conscious. They are complacent in their little lives, even as they sit on 422 or 309 or 202, and even though this region was literally the epicenter of rail travel 50 years ago. This has allowed politicians to not really pay attention to this issue, aside from lip service every now and then.

Reading and Bethlehem may be pipe dreams at this point, but Pottstown, Quakertown, and West Chester should not be. I hold out hope. And, for what it's worth, call, write, or email your state reps. Mine called me back the next day and I told him I simply don't understand how/why the train doesn't go to at least Phoenixville. He gave me a good ten minutes of his time and was very receptive. A year later, he voted for the transportation funding package.

Interestingly enough, I just read an article this morning that discussed a new citizens committee in WC borough with a "bring the trains back" goal. I was told by Senator Casey's office to get involved at the local level in such issues.

Some of the grumpy old men on this site will call you a dreamer and chastise you and say that this has all been discussed before but your post is valid and well-written. I'm with you.

As for the 2nd post, he's right - funding is the real issue.
 #1279818  by Limited-Clear
 
The other stumbling block is the townships the proposed routes run through or back to, Newtown for example would be "easy" to resurrect, if funding were there you still have several anti transit townships to get past, and then there are the NIMBYs, some of these NIMBYs have wealth, with wealth brings decisions their way.

Sending trains back to the Lehigh valley also has the problem of anti transit townships, they don't want to provide funding to help with service and septa won't or can't pony up all the money to do it.

People in KOP when asked about extension of rail service were against it saying it would just bring crime to the areas.

All these points have been brought up in posts on here, and are freely available for anyone using the search function.

The post is well written, but septa cant change unless the regions politicians change, put the funding it, supervise the use of the funds, extend service and change the attitudes of townships, tell the NIMBYs rail service is for the good of the region and if they don't like the big "clean" electric train in their backyard to move.

Politicians really run Septa, that needs to change and let the people have their railroad back (with common sense of course), once Septa is run like a company that is in it for the people it will have a chance of becoming a great system
 #1279826  by 34thStreet
 
I wouldn't say all people in KOP are against the extension. There were some, yes, who complained that it would increase crime, but we all know thats just another form of NIMBY-ism, and that while their voices are the loudest they may not be in the majority. In particular we have a township board of supervisors that is very supportive of this project. That is one extension of Septa's service that I do think will happen eventually. King of Prussia desperately needs it too.

I agree with the OP that Septa is incredibly frustrating and disappointing, especially when compared to other systems. In addition to physical expansion of their services, I think many (myself included) would like to see more frequent and faster service. But again, it all comes down to the F-word.
 #1279837  by Clearfield
 
Jersey_Mike wrote:SEPTA is, at its core, a Bus Company. Trains and trolleys were things that were foist upon them. Everything else stems from that.
Not quite true Mike. SEPTA's initial role was to take over the bankrupt PTC (Buses, MFSE, BSL and trolleys), Red Arrow (buses and trolleys) and the P&W (inter urban rail) in the mid 1960's.

Managing the railroad came nearly 20 years later when the PC & Reading bellied up leaving neglected infrastructure and rolling stock behind in Conrail's hands before being conveyed to SEPTA.

In its 50 years of existence, SEPTA for the first time has a predictable funding base. For the first time in my recollection, SEPTA has a strong senior management team.

Pennsylvania as a state had never had any real public policy regarding funding public transportation.

As bad as some people feel the systems is, just a reminder that a year ago SEPTA was named the best public transit property in the country by APTA. Under the financial circumstances, that's just short of a miracle. http://www.septa.org/media/short/2012/07-30.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trolleys weren't foisted on SEPTA, they were the trolley company from day one, and SEPTA offers more modes of public transportation then almost any other property. The only thing SEPTA doesn't offer is cable cars, funiculars and ferries.

Mark Twain said that democracy is the worst possible form of government....except for all the rest.
I say that SEPTA is the worst transit agency in the USA...except for all the rest.
Everything is relative.


Just my 2 cents.
 #1279849  by JeffersonLeeEng
 
34thStreet wrote:I wouldn't say all people in KOP are against the extension. There were some, yes, who complained that it would increase crime, but we all know thats just another form of NIMBY-ism, and that while their voices are the loudest they may not be in the majority. In particular we have a township board of supervisors that is very supportive of this project. That is one extension of Septa's service that I do think will happen eventually. King of Prussia desperately needs it too.
And King of Prussia has been literally paved over with retail and suburban sprawl development up and down Route 202 (Dekalb Pike) which is pretty much the epicenter of shopping in this area. The extension of the NHSL is an idea that I feel is probably a decade too late and the possibility of eventual building/installation is even further out into the future. Retrofitting this area to provide for accessible transit service is like hammering a round peg into a square hole. It probably is feasible, but the results can't be too pretty. Although, looking at the way the construction for the Route 202 expressway around Malvern and points south is currently looking, maybe we need to put a fire under these sorts of long-term projects...

Signed,
Jefferson
 #1279854  by Mumphrey O. Yamm
 
I understand about the money. I really do. Somebody above said SEPTA has only $3-400,000,000 a year to work with, while other authorities get upward of $1,000,000,000 a year. That’s a big handicap. But at the same time, there’s something else, too. I got all hot and bothered to write this post last night after I read about how SEPTA handled the then-R6 to Ivy Ridge in 1988.

I guess many here already know that sorry saga. They shut the Pencoyd bridge down because they deemed it unsafe, and while it was shut down, vandals burned a switch farther in on the line. SEPTA then shut the whole line down and said it would cost $650,000 to put in a new switch, and another $1,000,000 to get the bridge fixed up. People who rode the line hired an engineering firm to give their own estimate, which was that the switch would cost about $81,000 to fix, and that to do the switch and the bridge both would be about $470,000 and take three months.

At meetings in Cynwyd and Overbrook soon after, SEPTA officials sneered at the lower estimate and showed slides of the needed work they said cost too much to undertake. Among the pictures was one of the switch building, taken while it was burning. SEPTA claimed that one of their workers, by happenstance, stumbled upon the burning building just after the vandals had fled and before the fire trucks came to put it out. This was in the middle of the night. Out along a lonely stretch of track. He just happened to be there with a camera. This was met with derisive laughter at the meeting, as well it should have been.

This leads me to wonder, though, whether SEPTA itself might have set that fire to give them an excuse to shut down the line. And I can’t be the only one who has thought this. I’m decidedly not given to conspiracy theories. But the fact that even I would seriously question whether SEPTA might have vandalized its own property to give them a reason to end service on one of its lines shows just how bad the problems are at SEPTA.
 #1279862  by loufah
 
Rail systems are generally oriented to get suburban workers into the city for jobs. SEPTA is in an unfortunate situation of having to run in a city without a lot of jobs worth commuting for. If you look at the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_r ... th_America" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , and I've verified some of these numbers, Philadelphia commuter rail ridership is below that of the much smaller city of Boston. Add into this a state that is hostile toward handouts to urban residents and you have a chronically underfunded agency.
 #1279876  by Push&Pull Master
 
Limited-Clear wrote:The other stumbling block is the townships the proposed routes run through or back to, Newtown for example would be "easy" to resurrect, if funding were there you still have several anti transit townships to get past, and then there are the NIMBYs, some of these NIMBYs have wealth, with wealth brings decisions their way.

Sending trains back to the Lehigh valley also has the problem of anti transit townships, they don't want to provide funding to help with service and septa won't or can't pony up all the money to do it.

People in KOP when asked about extension of rail service were against it saying it would just bring crime to the areas.

All these points have been brought up in posts on here, and are freely available for anyone using the search function.

The post is well written, but septa cant change unless the regions politicians change, put the funding it, supervise the use of the funds, extend service and change the attitudes of townships, tell the NIMBYs rail service is for the good of the region and if they don't like the big "clean" electric train in their backyard to move.

Politicians really run Septa, that needs to change and let the people have their railroad back (with common sense of course), once Septa is run like a company that is in it for the people it will have a chance of becoming a great system
There aren't as many NIMBYs in the area as before though. For example, the Pennridge proposal received very little opposition unlike the earlier proposals and the KOP project just had a few people paranoid about crime. The route that seems to have tons of opposition however is Newtown. You're right though about wealthy NIMBYs having tons of political control.
 #1279886  by 34thStreet
 
Push-Pull Master wrote: There aren't as many NIMBYs in the area as before though. For example, the Pennridge proposal received very little opposition unlike the earlier proposals and the KOP project just had a few people paranoid about crime. The route that seems to have tons of opposition however is Newtown. You're right though about wealthy NIMBYs having tons of political control.
Some of the KOP dissenters were also worried about having an elevated structure, i.e. the MFL. While I believe SEPTA is still studying possible alignments, nobody paid attention to the fact that Septa was/is studying both elevated and at-grade alignments, and instead panicked thinking Septa was going to put another EL right through KOP. I'd be willing to bet most of them have never even seen the NHSL, and most assumed it would be six-car trains of heavy, noisy subway cars like the M4's, which of course the N-5's are not, given that they are much lighter, quieter and only run in single or double car configuration. The general public's ignorance can often be a major road block (other than the $$$) with some of these projects Septa wants to do.
JeffersonLeeEng wrote:
And King of Prussia has been literally paved over with retail and suburban sprawl development up and down Route 202 (Dekalb Pike) which is pretty much the epicenter of shopping in this area. The extension of the NHSL is an idea that I feel is probably a decade too late and the possibility of eventual building/installation is even further out into the future. Retrofitting this area to provide for accessible transit service is like hammering a round peg into a square hole. It probably is feasible, but the results can't be too pretty. Although, looking at the way the construction for the Route 202 expressway around Malvern and points south is currently looking, maybe we need to put a fire under these sorts of long-term projects...

Signed,
Jefferson
Yes, you're absolutely right, this is a decade too late. King of Prussia has expanded way quicker than it could handle, and automobile trips from one end of town to the other that take a half hour are just one example of that. But as others have said, that's Septa for you- too little too late, and while Septa is partly to blame, so are the people who control its wallet.
 #1279921  by 25Hz
 
Great thread!

My question is where to get funding, and how to market expansion to people who won't ride even when the trains return.

My other quandary is how to best structure the schedule and routes to reflect both current travel patterns whilst leaving possibilities for changes as people change commute patterns with the new options. Maybe give away passes for free for travel into the city for a week or 2 (weekly passes).

All I know is that lack of options to get around will bite us in the rear as other regions expand their systems and trains per hour etc. It has started all ready, what will be done to reverse 45 years of declineing service & make the region attractive for sustainably minded people and those not into driving on super highways that clog like a storm drain full of leaves.
 #1280069  by loufah
 
25Hz wrote: All I know is that lack of options to get around will bite us in the rear as other regions expand their systems and trains per hour etc.
Can you expand on this? Do you mean neighboring regions with trains that connect to SEPTA? At Trenton, NJT provides around 2 or 3x the frequency as SEPTA, yet SEPTA almost never fills more than 2 cars there. It'd be a waste of resources to add extra runs on a 33-mile line just to reduce the wait times for a few dozen passengers by 15 or 30 minutes. The crew could probably better serve an overcrowded line like Paoli, for instance. Amtrak has 700 passengers a day at Paoli; presumably a bunch of them are going to Philadelphia and prefer Amtrak to SEPTA.
 #1280173  by JeffK
 
Push-Pull Master wrote:There aren't as many NIMBYs in the area as before though. For example, the Pennridge proposal received very little opposition unlike the earlier proposals and the KOP project just had a few people paranoid about crime.
Very true. I've attended all of the recent public presentations and have been very surprised at how quickly opposition in K of P has cooled down. Of course, it's hard to say whether it's because people are realizing how important the P&W extension is, or the NIMBYs have stopped attending because they didn't get a very positive welcome at the early sessions. Either way, the result is good.
34thStreet wrote:Some of the KOP dissenters were also worried about having an elevated structure, i.e. the MFL. While I believe SEPTA is still studying possible alignments, nobody paid attention to the fact that Septa was/is studying both elevated and at-grade alignments, and instead panicked thinking Septa was going to put another EL right through KOP. I'd be willing to bet most of them have never even seen the NHSL, and most assumed it would be six-car trains of heavy, noisy subway cars like the M4's, which of course the N-5's are not, given that they are much lighter, quieter and only run in single or double car configuration. The general public's ignorance can often be a major road block (other than the $$$) with some of these projects Septa wants to do.
That's absolutely correct. One of the early, vocal dissenters was a woman who admitted that she'd never seen the line and was basing her opposition on what she knew about the Market Street El. In addition, the animation SEPTA presented of both Route 202 alternatives may have been a double-edged sword. Those images let people focus on what the 202 options would look like while the 2 other alternatives were simply written descriptions. Pictures, 1K words, and all that. Finally, the choice of routes is significantly complicated by the fact that although running along 202 is clearly optimal from a ridership standpoint, it's also the most difficult and disruptive to build.
JeffersonLeeEng wrote:And King of Prussia has been literally paved over with retail and suburban sprawl development up and down Route 202 (Dekalb Pike) which is pretty much the epicenter of shopping in this area. The extension of the NHSL is an idea that I feel is probably a decade too late and the possibility of eventual building/installation is even further out into the future. Retrofitting this area to provide for accessible transit service is like hammering a round peg into a square hole. It probably is feasible, but the results can't be too pretty.
Yes, you're absolutely right, this is a decade too late. King of Prussia has expanded way quicker than it could handle, and automobile trips from one end of town to the other that take a half hour are just one example of that. But as others have said, that's Septa for you- too little too late, and while Septa is partly to blame, so are the people who control its wallet.
IMO far more than a decade. For years K of P had a board of supervisors who never met a project that was too big or too invasive. The board chairman was himself a developer who actively tried to silence public opposition. A few of those plans were stopped but most went forward and we're now paying the price.