SVM and the Pencoyd Viaduct

[PhilliesPhan2013]

I've been studying the original plan for the SVM in immense detail. My conclusion: no wonder it was shot down! Until the state of PA provides funding for SEPTA to expand out of its five county region (which I hope happens really soon), expanding into Berks County is not feasible at the moment. I do believe that there is hope for the SVM, however. What if we kept the newly extended R6 lines in Montgomery County with one station (Phoenixville) in Chester County? I think that the following improvements would make a truncated SVM absolutely possible:

1. Truncate the original SVM plans down to as far as Pottsville. Let the PRR side extend to Pottsville, with stations at Port Kennedy, Valley Forge, Oaks, Phoenixville, Royersford, Limerick Township, and Pottstown. Let the Reading side extend to Port Kennedy, King of Prussia, Cassett Road, Great Valley, and Glenloch.

2. Reopen the Pencoyd Viaduct. This can be accomplished by razing the Schuylkill Valley Rail Trail (which, in my opinion, should have never existed). This will be needed to have the extended R6 Norristown trains run to Pottstown.

3. Purchase, develop, and build on a new ROW from Port Kennedy to Glenloch.

4. Electrify the new ROW. Re-electrify any non-electrified portions of the old Reading ROW.

I think that this can totally happen. SEPTA needs to reapply for federal funding, even if not for the SVM (federal money can be used for Newtown, Atglen, West Chester, Quakertown/Bethlehem, BSL extensions, etc.).

[BPP1999]

Instead of such a grandiose plan, which requires many "if's," why not simply start with the goal of extending the R6 to Phoenixville, then to Pottstown, if the situation with the Black Rock Tunnel can be dealt with. Getting to Phoenixville puts a good chunk of the 422 corridor within a 5-10 minute drive to the train. It is also not too expensive a proposition and requires simply that SEPTA share NS tracks. Seems to me that such sharing occurs elsewhere in the US so it should work here.

[bikentransit]

Laws, regulations and opinions are overly complicated that nothing will get built in this region. It's a wonder it gets done anywhere.

[Push&Pull Master]

I think the best proposal for this rail corridor suggested so far was the 422 Plus Plan. It would have been simple: 7 direct round-trips between Wyomissing and Philadelphia utilizing ALP-45dps, Well-spaced stations at Valley Forge, Phoenixville, Royersford, Pottstown, Monocacy, Reading, and Wyomissing, Shared ROW with N.S. Unfortunately, opposition due to the proposed tolling of 422 has killed the project.

[John Johnstone]

Unfortunately, railroading culture in our workforce is dwindling. Without public support, there will be no revitalization of trains NW of Norristown. Most people are satisfied to sit in traffic on 422 & 202 in their own "personal space" during the week and ride their bike on a rail trail on the weekend. If any re-structuring of the two lines to the Coal Regions were to occur, it should have happended during the Conrail-to-SEPTA transition between 1978 - 1984.

[NorthPennLimited]

Would it be feasible to skip the cost of an ALP-45 dual mode ($12million a piece) for an MP36 ($3 million). If they purchase 6 diesels for the service to Pottstown, they could use the capital savings to study having the SVM follow the Reading Mainline from CP NORRIS - Belmont Jct - to Park Junction, and use the old city Branch ROW to reach center city. Another option is follow the B&O route to the old Chestnut Street Station, cross the river at RG tower and connect with the Airport Line.

[AlexC]

Unfortunately, railroading culture in our workforce is dwindling. Without public support, there will be no revitalization of trains NW of Norristown. Most people are satisfied to sit in traffic on 422 & 202 in their own "personal space" during the week and ride their bike on a rail trail on the weekend. If any re-structuring of the two lines to the Coal Regions were to occur, it should have happended during the Conrail-to-SEPTA transition between 1978 - 1984.

Has anyone seen a study of just exactly where a typical 422 commuter goes?

As a resident of the 422 corridor, precisely ZERO of my neighbors work in the city. (Anecdote is not data)
A few work in Conshohocken (which would benefit) or King of Prussia (minor benefit aka "might as well drive") or 202 corridor down to West Chester, or it's getting on an airplane to go somewhere else.

[BPP1999]

Has anyone seen a study of just exactly where a typical 422 commuter goes?

As a resident of the 422 corridor, precisely ZERO of my neighbors work in the city. (Anecdote is not data)
A few work in Conshohocken (which would benefit) or King of Prussia (minor benefit aka "might as well drive") or 202 corridor down to West Chester, or it's getting on an airplane to go somewhere else.

Good point, but as another resident of the 422 corridor, SOME of my neighbors work in the city (anecdotally as well) and SOME of my previous neighbors (also in the 422 corridor) worked in the city as well. However, it is unfortunate that there is no city connection to the 422 corridor. The idea that someone living 30 miles out has no access to a train station within 10 miles is ridiculous for a region of our history, size, wealth, and standing. Restoring train service to Phoenixville would cause a shift in where people move and how development occurs. Less development in the cornfields and more in P-Ville, which is supposedly what the anti-sprawl crusaders and the pro-"let's redevelop our small towns" crusaders want.

At this point restoring service to Reading may be too "visionary" (at least for our area) but restoring service to P-Ville is not. That's what SEPTA and business leaders should be talking about. Actually, the business leaders have done more than one study and a $500M "vision" project to Pottstown remains on SEPTA's future capital plan but it might be more reasonable to simply consider P-Ville. It's easier, cheaper, does not require improvements of the tunnel, and ends up in a borough that is smack in the middle of suburban sprawl.

[tgolanos]

Unfortunately, railroading culture in our workforce is dwindling. Without public support, there will be no revitalization of trains NW of Norristown. Most people are satisfied to sit in traffic on 422 & 202 in their own "personal space" during the week and ride their bike on a rail trail on the weekend. If any re-structuring of the two lines to the Coal Regions were to occur, it should have happended during the Conrail-to-SEPTA transition between 1978 - 1984.

Has anyone seen a study of just exactly where a typical 422 commuter goes?

As a resident of the 422 corridor, precisely ZERO of my neighbors work in the city. (Anecdote is not data)
A few work in Conshohocken (which would benefit) or King of Prussia (minor benefit aka "might as well drive") or 202 corridor down to West Chester, or it's getting on an airplane to go somewhere else.

I can concur - from visiting my parents this past January, most of the neighbors who I met worked in either King of Prussia, Valley Forge, Conshy or in Collegeville even. I can't think of anyone who worked in the city.

I do remember sitting on 422 going back to the airport with my dad when after 30 or so minutes he blurted out 'they really need to build that damn train line right down the friggen' middle of this road!' It's just one person, but I really do think a rail link to the airport would see support. Even it if only involved a 3 or 4 station extension from Norristown to Phoenixville.

[MichaelBug]

Has anyone seen a study of just exactly where a typical 422 commuter goes?

As a resident of the 422 corridor, precisely ZERO of my neighbors work in the city. (Anecdote is not data)
A few work in Conshohocken (which would benefit) or King of Prussia (minor benefit aka "might as well drive") or 202 corridor down to West Chester, or it's getting on an airplane to go somewhere else.

Good point, but as another resident of the 422 corridor, SOME of my neighbors work in the city (anecdotally as well) and SOME of my previous neighbors (also in the 422 corridor) worked in the city as well. However, it is unfortunate that there is no city connection to the 422 corridor. The idea that someone living 30 miles out has no access to a train station within 10 miles is ridiculous for a region of our history, size, wealth, and standing. Restoring train service to Phoenixville would cause a shift in where people move and how development occurs. Less development in the cornfields and more in P-Ville, which is supposedly what the anti-sprawl crusaders and the pro-"let's redevelop our small towns" crusaders want.

At this point restoring service to Reading may be too "visionary" (at least for our area) but restoring service to P-Ville is not. That's what SEPTA and business leaders should be talking about. Actually, the business leaders have done more than one study and a $500M "vision" project to Pottstown remains on SEPTA's future capital plan but it might be more reasonable to simply consider P-Ville. It's easier, cheaper, does not require improvements of the tunnel, and ends up in a borough that is smack in the middle of suburban sprawl.

Well, I am also a resident along the 422 corridor (as well as a Collegeville resident), & I DO work in Center City Philadelphia. I agree wholeheartedly with BPP that restoration of rail service, even to Phoenixville, would greatly benefit the area. It is insane that in order to avoid 422-related traffic, I must drive in the opposite direction towards North Wales to access existing rail service. If there had been a strike on Regional Rail, my best SEPTA alternative would have involved driving to Plymouth Meeting Mall & taking an hour-plus ride on the 27 bus...and hoping that the Mall management would not tow my car away before my return.

[NorthPennLimited]

my wife and I are friends with a couple who live in Phoenixville. They work in the city, but drive to Radnor and take the train. Not sure if they take regional rail or the NHSL. But they insist that's easier than catching the train from Norristown.

[MichaelBug]

my wife and I are friends with a couple who live in Phoenixville. They work in the city, but drive to Radnor and take the train. Not sure if they take regional rail or the NHSL. But they insist that's easier than catching the train from Norristown.

One of my former coworkers, who lived in Schuylkill Twp. (just east of Phoenixville) would take the train from Strafford. She would just come down Rt. 252. It is easier to take the Paoli-Thorndale line if you live on the south side of the Schuylkill (& thus avoid 422 entirely).

SEPTA.recently discontinued bus service on the 205 from Phoenixville to Paoli (via Great Valley). I actually considered using it. However, there would have been no parking available anywhere near the route in Phoenixville.

[PhilliesPhan2013]

Instead of such a grandiose plan, which requires many "if's," why not simply start with the goal of extending the R6 to Phoenixville, then to Pottstown, if the situation with the Black Rock Tunnel can be dealt with. Getting to Phoenixville puts a good chunk of the 422 corridor within a 5-10 minute drive to the train. It is also not too expensive a proposition and requires simply that SEPTA share NS tracks. Seems to me that such sharing occurs elsewhere in the US so it should work here.

I do agree with this. Is the ROW from Norristown to Phoenixville electrified? If not, then SEPTA could either lease/buy DMUs and have them leave from North Broad, or they could purchase a few dual-modes. If the future calls for it, SEPTA could electrify the corridor and therefore integrate the line into the electrified system.

I think that running trains on the Pencoyd Viaduct could possibly be feasible if the demand for rail service at King of Prussia and beyond calls for it. It would be absolutely awesome to, from my area of Delco, take either the R2 from Chester or the R3 from Elwyn (depending on the timetable) and transfer to an R6 going to King of Prussia. Another alternate could be to just run trains from Norristown to King of Prussia and beyond; however, the R6 Cynwyd Line would become more viable due to the extension over the Pencoyd Viaduct to KOP.

[Push&Pull Master]

Instead of such a grandiose plan, which requires many "if's," why not simply start with the goal of extending the R6 to Phoenixville, then to Pottstown, if the situation with the Black Rock Tunnel can be dealt with. Getting to Phoenixville puts a good chunk of the 422 corridor within a 5-10 minute drive to the train. It is also not too expensive a proposition and requires simply that SEPTA share NS tracks. Seems to me that such sharing occurs elsewhere in the US so it should work here.

I do agree with this. Is the ROW from Norristown to Phoenixville electrified? If not, then SEPTA could either lease/buy DMUs and have them leave from North Broad, or they could purchase a few dual-modes. If the future calls for it, SEPTA could electrify the corridor and therefore integrate the line into the electrified system.

I think that running trains on the Pencoyd Viaduct could possibly be feasible if the demand for rail service at King of Prussia and beyond calls for it. It would be absolutely awesome to, from my area of Delco, take either the R2 from Chester or the R3 from Elwyn (depending on the timetable) and transfer to an R6 going to King of Prussia. Another alternate could be to just run trains from Norristown to King of Prussia and beyond; however, the R6 Cynwyd Line would become more viable due to the extension over the Pencoyd Viaduct to KOP.

No, the ROW from Norristown to Phoenixville is and never was electrified.
Running via the Pencoyd Viaduct is probably never going to happen again. SEPTA has leased the Cynwyd Branch north of Cynwyd to a trail group who is converting the ROW into a trail and connecting to the Schuylkill Trail via Manayunk. This group also wants to convert the entire Cynwyd Line into a trail but I don't think SEPTA would let that happen anytime soon. The other problem with restoring service via Cynwyd is that raises the cost somewhat significantly. In my opinion, I feel the following alternatives to SVM would be better:
A. Electric extension to Phoenixville (without killing off Elm Street and Main Street)
B. Dual Mode extension to Pottstown (BARTA could pay for a Reading extension)

Right now, SEPTA has no plans for a Norristown Line extension, but does have plans for extending the NHSL to King of Prussia.
This document may interest you though the project is no longer active due to opposition: http://www.dvrpc.org/Transportation/Reg ... endixC.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[NorthPennLimited]

wow. The operating costs show an engineer making just shy of $42 per hour. Not too shabby!

....And weekends off!