Railroad Forums 

  • New Lansdale station at Ninth Avenue

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

 #1272983  by 25Hz
 
Well if you build where the second track could be extended outbound on the single track section....... you effectively kill the second track extension.... two objects cannot occupy the same physical space.

Why would they put a station so close to the existing station, to further elongate the schedule?

All new builds would need to be fully ADA compliant, so it would effectively render the current station redundant.

Just another cockeyed "improvement" that would actually further put permanent restrictions on the system is all this station would be if they do build one.
 #1272994  by ChrisinAbington
 
25Hz wrote:Why would they put a station so close to the existing station, to further elongate the schedule?
Why do you keep asking redundant questions that have repeatedly been answered?
And what is up with your fascination of double tracking to Doylestown? That would be the biggest waste of money yet?
 #1273072  by 25Hz
 
ChrisinAbington wrote:
25Hz wrote:Why would they put a station so close to the existing station, to further elongate the schedule?
Why do you keep asking redundant questions that have repeatedly been answered?
And what is up with your fascination of double tracking to Doylestown? That would be the biggest waste of money yet?
A. It has not been answered, because no one here on this board knows or can share if they do know.

B. I didn't say "double tracking to doylestown". There is no fascination, simply fact that more double track = higher capacity. I said extending the double track towards doylestown. Currently the bottleneck is right out past landsdale. Extending the second track would allow two trains to be on the branch at the same time without stopping.
 #1273277  by CComMack
 
A new station at 9th Street would not only serve whatever redevelopment happened on the adjacent American Olean Tile site, but also the existing 700 jobs at Lansdale Hospital, which sits right on the 1/2 mile station walkshed radius. (Fortuna is 0.8 miles and Lansdale Station is 1.1 miles.) If enabling walkable transit access gets people out of their cars, it might even encouage Abington Health to shorten the distance to the station by expanding the campus west in the footprint of its own parking lot.
 #1273292  by Suburban Station
 
CComMack wrote:A new station at 9th Street would not only serve whatever redevelopment happened on the adjacent American Olean Tile site, but also the existing 700 jobs at Lansdale Hospital, which sits right on the 1/2 mile station walkshed radius. (Fortuna is 0.8 miles and Lansdale Station is 1.1 miles.) If enabling walkable transit access gets people out of their cars, it might even encouage Abington Health to shorten the distance to the station by expanding the campus west in the footprint of its own parking lot.
25 hz is right, if it blocks double tracking the line it would be idiotic rather than questionable.
as it stands now
FY13 weekday boardings
lansdale 1,338
Fortuna 104
colmar 302
Link Belt 37
Chalfont 139
New Britain 48
Del Val College 65
Doylestown 388
http://septa.org/reports/pdf/asp15-proposed.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note that three of SEPTA's 8 stations below the cutoff are on the doylestown branch. I hope we can all agree that trip time to doylestown is an issue as well. Lansdale is the only well performing station of the bunch with honorablemention to colmar and doylestown. the rest are superfluous. It mkes very little sense to add yet another station to this poorly performing branch. is the expectation that additional riders will be served or will riders simply be siphoned off existing stations? if additional riders are to be served, perhaps the right solution then isn't to add yet another station to a branch with too many already but to move fortuna closer to the medical campus. taking it a bit further, it seems that link belt, new britain, del vall college should all be eliminated to save capital and improve run times to doylestown
 #1273296  by ChrisinAbington
 
I would agree with all those station suggestions. Fortuna, Link Belt, New Britain, and DelVal should be looked at in regards to dropping at some point. I would be SHOCKED if Fortuna was kept with a new station at American Olean. However, double-tracking? Really? What's the cost-benefit?
 #1273324  by CComMack
 
The single-track segment of the NJT River Line through Palmyra and Riverton is approximately 1.8 miles long. The River Line runs bidirectional local service on 15 minute headways, with DLRT vehicles that have more sluggish acceleration than SEPTA's RRD fleet.

It is slightly less than a mile from the American Olean station site to the southern end of the interlocking at Lansdale.

So if the construction of this station truly interfered with further double-tracking of the Doylestown Branch, it would be double-tracking in anticipation of train headways less than 10 minutes.

While I would say that that level of service would constitute victory, Suburban Station has provided us with the ridership census numbers for the Doylestown Branch. Can anybody present a plausible scenario involving the level of catastrophic success that would require such fantastic service frequencies? I'd like to, but I can't.

I advocate for increased frequencies on SEPTA Regional Rail as an immediate and ongoing goal for service improvement. But I think that 15 minute headways should be more than sufficient on most of the system. And the Doylestown Branch has no justification for more than that, even at the peak of the peak.
 #1273386  by tgolanos
 
ChrisinAbington wrote:I would agree with all those station suggestions. Fortuna, Link Belt, New Britain, and DelVal should be looked at in regards to dropping at some point.


They tried turning New Britain into a flag stop and the locals went ballistic. Imagine what they'll think should SEPTA try to outright close the station.
I would be SHOCKED if Fortuna was kept with a new station at American Olean.
I'm surprised it hasn't been closed since the moment SEPTA took over the RRD network.
 #1273395  by Push&Pull Master
 
For we all we know, SEPTA would extend the second track to the Ninth Street Station. SEPTA might design the station so that a second track can be built later. I wouldn't be surprised if that is discussed or asked by a resident at a meeting on the project. In my opinion, I really don't think there needs to be a second track on the Doylestown branch. The reason why ridership on the Doylestown branch is low is because the service is SLOW. It shouldn't take 90 minutes to get from Doylestown to Suburban on an express train. You get from Trenton to New York in about 90 minutes on a local! The Warminster Line has similar frequencies and gets a lot more riders than the Doylestown Branch. Now, one way to speed up Doylestown service is by skipping Del-Val College and Link Belt which wouldn't have too much impact since it's mostly reverse commute traffic at those two stops.
 #1273417  by SCB2525
 
You will save considerably more time scheduling Doylestown trains to not all stop everywhere south of Lansdale to at least Fort Washington. The line desperately needs true expresses as it currently only really has limiteds. All-peak Bryn-Mawr/Malvern style staggered short-turning would be even better. I have ridden a train which expresses through the entirety of the main line and it can be a very speedy affair save for grade crossing speed restrictions.

The Doylestown line is a textbook example of the realities of suburban rail service in metro Philadelphia and really most of the country; people DRIVE to the station. There is a direct correlation between parking availability and use of the station out here, until you hit an excess barring other changes (see Cornwells Heights). The stations of which you speak of closing have little or none:

-Fortuna is in a very good spot for a moderate train station; 463 is a fairly busy thoroughfare and the area is clustered with commercial and medium and light density residential. Access from Hatfield and north and parts of Montgomeryville is easier than to Lansdale. The current crappy set-up does very respectable numbers considering. Its paltry 33 spot lot is full every day. Walk-ups are frequent and actually comprise of the lion's share of ridership; I can attest to this fact. It would do much better with more parking and there is a parcel of land on the inbound side where it could be added. However, in a situation where a 9Th St station AND an extension north to Telford exist; closure could be justified.
-Colmar has had parking expanded and ridership is up, though admittedly not barn-burningly so.
-Link Belt is also in a fairly good spot for a train station, at least near-so. The station would do considerably better if it were situated at County Line Rd instead of directly in front of the former Link Belt cranes property and ridership would go up if there were ANY parking. Adjacent to Schoolhouse Rd would likely be better so as to siphon off Colmar's influence less and serve the housing due east of that intersection better. The biggest issue is that there is no parking and the stop is only there to directly serve employees of a few businesses. Not effective if your goal is to increase average riders per station.
-Chalfont is in a great spot to serve Chalfont itself and a few areas north but little else. Again however, the relatively small parking lot is FULL.
-New Britain is kind of tucked away a bit but even so, the lack of use of this station does perplex me. The lot is tiny but even so is not usually full. Its likely due to the fact that Almshouse Rd. is not a major N/S thoroughfare this far north due to its circuitousness north of 611. One could argue for the closure of this station with a replacement park and ride at the bustling Butler Pk/Bristol Rd intersection. Re-lay the second track and restore FOREST interlocking as-was with the station on the west side of Butler. Meets could be scheduled while one train or the other waits within the station; an ideal. Service can resultantly be increased. This station would likely do fairly good business with untapped Warrington commuters.
-Del Val is the same old song. Any station which serves only as a walk-up for a suburban college and has NO PARKING will never do too well. I would move the station to Shady Retreat Rd. with a parking lot and pathway for students to the college. The walk is really not much farther but now you can serve surrounding residents such as those displaced by the now-closed/relocated New Britain station


You might want to kill me but I would even investigate opening another station right at 611/Doylestown Bypass as a park and ride in mini-Cornwells vain. Such a station would be considerably more accessible for potential riders in the few miles surrounding Doylestown proper to the north and east especially; Doylestown is a gigantic pain to drive through.

ULTIMATELY the biggest thing the Doylestown line has against it is that it was laid from Lansdale and not due south along the 152/611 corridor to Glenside or somewhere along the New Hope line's south-end. It's jog southwest then southeast does not do it any favors for speed of travel into Philadelphia. Of course that horse is long out of the barn...
 #1273484  by 25Hz
 
SCB2525 wrote:You will save considerably more time scheduling Doylestown trains to not all stop everywhere south of Lansdale to at least Fort Washington. The line desperately needs true expresses as it currently only really has limiteds. All-peak Bryn-Mawr/Malvern style staggered short-turning would be even better. I have ridden a train which expresses through the entirety of the main line and it can be a very speedy affair save for grade crossing speed restrictions.

The Doylestown line is a textbook example of the realities of suburban rail service in metro Philadelphia and really most of the country; people DRIVE to the station. There is a direct correlation between parking availability and use of the station out here, until you hit an excess barring other changes (see Cornwells Heights). The stations of which you speak of closing have little or none:

-Fortuna is in a very good spot for a moderate train station; 463 is a fairly busy thoroughfare and the area is clustered with commercial and medium and light density residential. Access from Hatfield and north and parts of Montgomeryville is easier than to Lansdale. The current crappy set-up does very respectable numbers considering. Its paltry 33 spot lot is full every day. Walk-ups are frequent and actually comprise of the lion's share of ridership; I can attest to this fact. It would do much better with more parking and there is a parcel of land on the inbound side where it could be added. However, in a situation where a 9Th St station AND an extension north to Telford exist; closure could be justified.
-Colmar has had parking expanded and ridership is up, though admittedly not barn-burningly so.
-Link Belt is also in a fairly good spot for a train station, at least near-so. The station would do considerably better if it were situated at County Line Rd instead of directly in front of the former Link Belt cranes property and ridership would go up if there were ANY parking. Adjacent to Schoolhouse Rd would likely be better so as to siphon off Colmar's influence less and serve the housing due east of that intersection better. The biggest issue is that there is no parking and the stop is only there to directly serve employees of a few businesses. Not effective if your goal is to increase average riders per station.
-Chalfont is in a great spot to serve Chalfont itself and a few areas north but little else. Again however, the relatively small parking lot is FULL.
-New Britain is kind of tucked away a bit but even so, the lack of use of this station does perplex me. The lot is tiny but even so is not usually full. Its likely due to the fact that Almshouse Rd. is not a major N/S thoroughfare this far north due to its circuitousness north of 611. One could argue for the closure of this station with a replacement park and ride at the bustling Butler Pk/Bristol Rd intersection. Re-lay the second track and restore FOREST interlocking as-was with the station on the west side of Butler. Meets could be scheduled while one train or the other waits within the station; an ideal. Service can resultantly be increased. This station would likely do fairly good business with untapped Warrington commuters.
-Del Val is the same old song. Any station which serves only as a walk-up for a suburban college and has NO PARKING will never do too well. I would move the station to Shady Retreat Rd. with a parking lot and pathway for students to the college. The walk is really not much farther but now you can serve surrounding residents such as those displaced by the now-closed/relocated New Britain station


You might want to kill me but I would even investigate opening another station right at 611/Doylestown Bypass as a park and ride in mini-Cornwells vain. Such a station would be considerably more accessible for potential riders in the few miles surrounding Doylestown proper to the north and east especially; Doylestown is a gigantic pain to drive through.

ULTIMATELY the biggest thing the Doylestown line has against it is that it was laid from Lansdale and not due south along the 152/611 corridor to Glenside or somewhere along the New Hope line's south-end. It's jog southwest then southeast does not do it any favors for speed of travel into Philadelphia. Of course that horse is long out of the barn...
I agree with most of this.

The del val station i think is where it is due to proximity of parking lot and the dorms. If it were to move, i'd move it right to the end of the dorm lane here: http://prntscr.com/3nwwel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is actually an odd track by the 611 overpass north of the active tracks going uphill, and plenty of space underneath to fit some parking.
http://prntscr.com/3nwwxm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To everyone else.... as far as two tracks. I think it needs to be clarified that we are NOT talking about putting a double track line in. We are talking about extending double tracked area to allow trains to traverse the line without having to stop and wait. Currently trains taking to the line outbound have to wait for inbound trains to clear the block: http://prntscr.com/3nwxjz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Extending the double track in this area would be a huge deal, as it would in 1-2 other spots.

As much as i'm for adding stations, sometimes it ends up being more complicated, especially with such a local traffic oriented line like the doyelstown branch. Any changes could end up making rider numbers take a nosedive if not really well thought out and executed.

I think expresses from the branch past landsdale to ft washington would be amazing.
 #1273674  by Suburban Station
 
scb-your points underline why those stations are irrelevant. everyone drives anyway so it doesnt matter if the station is now a 30 minute walk rather than 15. if there were really walkup traffic at these stations their boardings wouldnt be garbage. stations like these have no business receiving millions in scarce capital dollars. shut them down and build parking at major stations. trains are at their best fewer rather than more stops. absolutely fortuna should be shut down if 9th st is built
 #1273678  by SCB2525
 
Do you have any idea what making a 15 minute walk a 30 minute walk does to ridership? It goes to 0. Like I said, Fortuna should be closed when "Pennridge" is up and running IF additional parking cannot be arranged. I stand by all my other points.
 #1273719  by 25Hz
 
It's too bad there are not more circuator buses serving these smaller stations PLUS slightly better numbers of trains to choose from. One an hour? You can drive from my place to the beach in belmar in an hour, who the hell with a car is going to wait 60+ minutes for a train that then takes an hour to get to 3oth?

The only way to attract riders is to shuffle stations a bit yes, but also add some trains & cut some stops on some trains. If there were more trains, the number of trains stopping at a station would be dependent on patronage vs the "every train makes every stop" subway pattern going on now....... Makes zero sense.