SEPTA NPT card will be "SEPTA Key"?

[MACTRAXX]

Everyone - two more observations to think about:

1-I was told that the new Key laptop and small reader system is actually slower than
the current method of selling legacy passes and tickets at outlying stations. With cash
it was an easy fast transaction. The small machine that handles credit and debit cards
is of a phone line-based system with slow response at times. Having the first working
day of the month rule in which the previous month's pass is valid until 10 AM worked
well especially if there were long sales lines at outlying stations.

With the Key ALL passes and ticket types requested need to use the new system.
Monday February 3rd is going to be a day to take note of since it will be the first
major test of the new Key sales system along with the continuing draw down of
the availability of legacy passes. Let's see how it performs with high demand...

2-A Conductor I know told me that the on-board readers - which are basically a
glorified cellular phone - are not totally reliable and also suffer from dead spots
the same as a regular cell phone would. Having to scan ALL Key cards along with
their traditional punching of tickets and cash fare receipts is making their jobs
HARDER knowing that legacy passes - which were used by the majority of RRD
riders - are visually observed/checked allowing more time to collect other fares.

Will a full Proof of Payment system ever be feasible on Regional Rail?
That will be an interesting question to be seen entering the 2020s decade...

MACTRAXX

[rcthompson04]

2-A Conductor I know told me that the on-board readers - which are basically a
glorified cellular phone - are not totally reliable and also suffer from dead spots
the same as a regular cell phone would. Having to scan ALL Key cards along with
their traditional punching of tickets and cash fare receipts is making their jobs
HARDER knowing that legacy passes - which were used by the majority of RRD
riders - are visually observed/checked allowing more time to collect other fares.

Will a full Proof of Payment system ever be feasible on Regional Rail?
That will be an interesting question to be seen entering the 2020s decade...

MACTRAXX

The article I posted yesterday says they are going to only do spot checks in the future once the Center City tap-out is fully implemented.

How does Amtrak handle their portable readers? I would suspect they have a lot more dead spots than SEPTA.

[WashingtonPark]

2-Failure to tap out of the system at exit will incur the highest fare possible - what will
Trenton and West Trenton Line riders have to pay? Will it be the Zone NJ $10 on-board
fare? The only way to make a distinction if a rider does not tap in from another line is
for a Conductor to check on board which is not guaranteed.

I wondered about #2. I have a senior key card and go to West Trenton. Since there is no money on it, if the conductors eventually stop checking as we go with just tapping in and out how would they know to collect the half fare?

[ExCon90]

I didn't mean to imply that two readers were adequate--just the opposite. A line of commuters standing in the rain waiting to reach a reader will not be pleased. Of course the single existing stairway, at the bottom of which the readers are placed, is a bottleneck in itself, but if each passenger has to pause in order to tap, the delay will be cumulative.

[ExCon90]

Will a full Proof of Payment system ever be feasible on Regional Rail?
That will be an interesting question to be seen entering the 2020s decade...

A full PoP system is the only thing that'll work smoothly but will require a change at top management, since the current mindset is that PROOF OF PAYMENT WON'T WORK IN PHILADELPHIA. Since a change in top management is what SEPTA is about to get, perhaps we may hope.

[nomis]

How does Amtrak handle their portable readers? I would suspect they have a lot more dead spots than SEPTA.

The conductor's portable reader synchronizes a copy of the manifest to their individual device, so the demand for network connectivity is not as critical for most ticket lifting transactions while walking through the train.

[dcipjr]

How does Amtrak handle their portable readers? I would suspect they have a lot more dead spots than SEPTA.

The conductor's portable reader synchronizes a copy of the manifest to their individual device, so the demand for network connectivity is not as critical for most ticket lifting transactions while walking through the train.

I'm shocked that SEPTA isn't doing this, but it appears that they are not. I've been using my Key with an Independence Pass more frequently, and have found that there are days when the Independence Pass didn't seem to be used, even though I rode back and forth on the train.

I guess this is why they're pushing people to tap in and out. They have to get tap-in-tap-out working before they can roll out Travel Wallet, because otherwise passes and balances might not even be used, and people will be getting free rides.

There are far too few readers at most outlying stations, though.

What a mess. And all to avoid fare evasion.

[ChrisinAbington]

[Is there really only 2 validators? It needs to be clear that you can use any validator at a station. At my usual station, there are 6 on the outbound side (3 on the platform and 3 beneath the platform that can be used for parking as well) and 6 on the inbound side (similar 3/3 arrangement). All 12 can be used for tapping in and tapping out. That needs to be clear to everyone.

Roslyn only has two as well. As my experience shows, it takes about a second and a half for each transaction to go through, so that line will move quite slowly in a bad weather day.

[rcthompson04]

How does Amtrak handle their portable readers? I would suspect they have a lot more dead spots than SEPTA.

The conductor's portable reader synchronizes a copy of the manifest to their individual device, so the demand for network connectivity is not as critical for most ticket lifting transactions while walking through the train.

I'm shocked that SEPTA isn't doing this, but it appears that they are not. I've been using my Key with an Independence Pass more frequently, and have found that there are days when the Independence Pass didn't seem to be used, even though I rode back and forth on the train.

I guess this is why they're pushing people to tap in and out. They have to get tap-in-tap-out working before they can roll out Travel Wallet, because otherwise passes and balances might not even be used, and people will be getting free rides.

There are far too few readers at most outlying stations, though.

What a mess. And all to avoid fare evasion.

You have to tap-in with an Independence Pass to activate it. I have not tapped-in twice because the reader was not working and heard about it on the train from the conductor. The conductor activated the Independence Pass by hitting something on the validator.

I think this will eliminate most fare evasion as you are required to tap-in and tap-out. If you get to Suburban and tap-out without tapping in, it would activate the Independence Pass. On your return trip, you would have to tap-in at Suburban as well.

If anything, I suspect this leads to a spike in revenue as we are going to see a bunch of people fail to properly tap-in and tap-out properly leading to Zone 4 charges on the Travel Wallet.

[ChesterValley]

http://septa.org/key/updates/tap-to-exit-jefferson.html

Starting Monday, January 13, 2020, all customers with SEPTA Key Cards and legacy Passes must Tap or Swipe to EXIT when using the designated turnstiles in Sections A&B at Jefferson Station. This fare procedure will be in effect Monday-Friday 6:00 a.m. - 8:00 p.m.

TAP to EXIT applies to all Key Cards including Senior Citizen as well as Quick Trips for customers traveling from the Airport towards Center City.

and

http://septa.org/key/updates/senior-card-extension.html

The first of the Senior SEPTA Key Cards expire in January 2020. Given that we are entering the bad weather months that may hamper travel, we are extending the valid period for ALL Senior Key Cards expiring in calendar 2020 for one (1) year. For example, Cards with a May 2020 expiration date will continue to be valid for travel through May 2021.

[Patrick Boylan]

Since we enter those same bad weather months every year it'll be interesting to see if they extend every year's expiration.

[MACTRAXX]

Everyone:

Jefferson Station weekday exit could lead to problems for those using legacy tickets and/or pay cash on board since they will have to take the punched ticket or receipt
to the gate for collection.

Anyone that purchases a Quick Trip ticket at the Airport is going to have to retain the ticket to exit at Jefferson Station - and train crew members will have to take extra
care to not punch the magnetic stripe on the bottom of the ticket if it needs to be
used for exit at JS or gets collected manually.

If the legacy ticket is collected and retained by a train crew member or if a passenger
leaves their fare receipt behind - prime examples of what is normal before exit gating
riders are going to be delayed at exit. Depending on how this policy change is
enforced there may be complaints from affected customers.

For those that carry Senior Key Cards allowing free transportation:
How long is the current valid period?
It may make more sense to eliminate expiration altogether since only the person photographed can use the card and that they carry no monetary value.

Thanks to Ryan's reply it turns out that the RFID chip embedded in the card has a "lifespan" of its own and is the main reason senior cards need to be replaced
periodically along with regular issue Key cards.
MACTRAXX

[ryan92084]

Yes agents dealing with key frequently takes longer than legacy did especially if you are purchasing a new key instead of reloading. This is mostly offset by the shorter lines we've been experiencing in the outlying stations. Exception would be for those that like to dash in as the train is pulling up.

Its my understanding the cards need to expire frequently because of the projected rfid lifespan. New key cards likely last 3-4 years depending on how old of a batch you are getting. Seniors are 4 years iirc.

If you go beyond your fare zone/forget to tap out on the key the plan is to charge for an intermediate ticket $3.75/1.75 + onboard roundup not the max fare. This is the same as how its been handled for many years. Seniors will likely be able to get away with this unless the conductors notice. Not sure how that'll work out for the return with seniors especially if they don't go through a center city turnstile.

[JeffK]

Its my understanding the cards need to expire frequently because of the projected rfid lifespan. New key cards likely last 3-4 years depending on how old of a batch you are getting. Seniors are 4 years iirc.

The chip in my Senior Key frazzed almost a year before the card's expiration date. When I tried to get a replacement the drones at 1234 said I'd have to pay a "damage penalty" - whatever the F that is - which I refused to do. After multiple visits and phone calls they're still stonewalling. Has anyone else hit this Kafkaworld stupidity as well?

If they're extending the validity period for another year, I wonder how many chips will fail in that time frame and require replacement anyway. Also unanswered is how much they plan to charge for new ones and whether the new card's validity period will start with its issue date, its original expiration date, or the revised one. In view of G.E.L.D. I'm expecting it'll be the first option which effectively changes the validity period to "X months or the life of the chip, whichever comes first". Not exactly user-friendly, especially if your chip fails unexpectedly as mine did.

I'm not familiar with RFID tech so I have no idea if a 3-4 year lifespan is normal. Or did SEPTA again go low-end, like they did with the old orange TVMs and Duncan fareboxes? I've heard from a few people that the cards' plastic substrate is particularly brittle and lets stresses affect the embedded circuitry, so probably (cheap, cheap)

[ryan92084]

I don't know about the seniors but the original set of standard key cards was notoriously terrible. While i haven't heard any complaints about seniors failing early they sure do wear quickly. Important to note that a lot of the time its the reader that is the issue rather than the card. This is especially true for the bus readers. The usual test would be to see if the kiosks read them but that wouldn't work with seniors.

The replacement policy for damaged senior cards is the same as the lost cards afaik.

Replacement cards cost $5 for the first lost card and $25 for each subsequent lost card.

A bit of a raw deal considering its 4.95 for the standard cards no matter how many times.