NPT status

[jackintosh11]

When is NPT supposed to roll out in the transit division and the railroad division?

[scotty269]

http://www.septa.org/npt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.septa.org/fares/npt/project-timeline.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[sammy2009]

I've seen a couple of trolleys with the payment readers, two stations with the new faregates (13th ,and Frankford Terminal) there's a few more other places. But it feels like SEPTA pushing this really really slow. It's a little frustrating. The city division of the NPT is easy. The railroad deployment seems like it will give the trouble and setbacks.

[#5 - Dyre Ave]

Well, SEPTA says they're planning to have the process completed by next year. We shall see..

[Tritransit Area]

I believe the City Transit Division should be at least 50% operation by this summer. I'd rather have them go slowly and make it work instead of push forward rapidly only to have massive errors and chaos ala CTA Ventra.

[jackintosh11]

I think that the railroad division rollout has to wait. However, during that time, conventional trailpasses should still be accepted on transit, otherwise people would have to buy 2 separate passes.

[tgolanos]

I think that the railroad division rollout has to wait. However, during that time, conventional trailpasses should still be accepted on transit, otherwise people would have to buy 2 separate passes.

Transport New South Wales is doing the same thing here around Sydney. They've already rolled out our tap cards* on all ferry services. For the suburban and intercity trains they're doing a progressive roll out - first the CBD stations, then the inner suburban stations that already had fare gates, then the inner suburban stations without gates. At this point we have tap cards all the way from the CBD to Wyong, about the same distance Market East to Reading Franklin Street. TNSW is only just starting on the buses, with only 2 routes having tap card capabilities at this point. People who use train stations or buses without tap card readers have to keep using regular one way, round trip or multi passes.

There were a lot of similar complaints and worries about the tap cards here as we're hearing about in Philadelphia, minus the fare gate issue - those have been at Sydney train stations for a long while now. For stations that didn't have fare gates, TNSW installed tap card readers along the platforms. If you don't tap off, you're simply charged the maximum amount. If this happens, you're given time to contact TNSW and request a fare adjustment. There are lots of signs on trains and at stations about not forgetting to tap on/off, as well. I haven't heard or read anything about mass tap off confusion or people being charged incorrectly.

While our tap cards offer slightly cheaper fares than standard one-way and return fares, it is still cheaper at this point for many to continue buying our Multi tickets, especially if you are only a peak-hour commuter. The biggest issue here is the speed of the roll out. TNSW is taking it slowly to make sure that there are as few bugs as possible with the system before it's on all trains, ferrys, buses, and trollies. Much like I think it'll be in Philly, it's a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' scenario. If it's rolled out too quickly and there are issues, people with complain that it was too rushed. If you roll it out slowly and methodically, people will complain that it's not happening fast enough. It's working here in Sydney and will work well when it's across the system. Same thing for Philly.

*We only have full fare, multi-use cards at this point. Concession, reduced fare, and single-use cards will come later.

[jackintosh11]

And since SEPTA has said that cash payment will still be an option, how will that work for exiting the system if you didn't have a card? Will there be a system similar to the single ride tickets on PATCO, or will you have to use a smartcard? And if the conductor doesn't have to collect tickets, how do they collect the cash? And what's to prevent people from tapping the opposite side of the turnstile, and then tapping out and not paying? Or if someone taps in at suburban, for example, and then taps out again, and then rides the train?

[tgolanos]

And since SEPTA has said that cash payment will still be an option, how will that work for exiting the system if you didn't have a card? Will there be a system similar to the single ride tickets on PATCO...?

Most likely. Ticket with a magnetic strip goes into the machine, and gets collected by the machine. If there is no fare gate, you hold onto the ticket. The magnetic strips will most likely be coded so you can't use it at another station at another time.

And if the conductor doesn't have to collect tickets, how do they collect the cash?

The logical thing would be that they wouldn't. SEPTA would instead install TVMs and/or be forced to keep the ticket offices open until end of service. The system would then be entirely pre-pay with no on-board sales yet still have a cash option for people. I know, I know, 'logic' and 'SEPTA'... We'll have to wait and see.

And what's to prevent people from tapping the opposite side of the turnstile, and then tapping out and not paying? Or if someone taps in at suburban, for example, and then taps out again, and then rides the train?

I'm not sure I follow you too well here. If I understand you properly, you are asking if:
1. Someone taps on at, say, Suburban
2. Taps off at the same turnstile at Suburban, thus 'exiting' the system
3. Stays on the platform at Suburban and rides the train to, say, West Trenton
4. Leaves the station after getting a free ride

The best way to control fares and prevent this from happening to to have the conductors check people on the train with pocket card readers. This could be done systematically like they do now with tickets or randomly, but there has to be a penalty, not just a surcharge, for not having a valid ticket. They do random checks here in Sydney with both paper tickets and tap cards. It's (up to) a $500 fine for fare evasion if you don't have a paper ticket or are caught purposely trying to avoid paying with a tap card. If you didn't tap on validly, the fare inspectors tap you on and, I think, charge you the maximum one-way fare, as well. For fare could easily become $508 for a one way ride. Most people here aren't willing to risk that.

That being said, people will always try to cheat every fare system, I remember that being said on one of these many NPT forums. The question is, are the vast majority of Regional Rail commuters responsible enough for this system?

[Patrick Boylan]

At this point we have tap cards all the way from the CBD to Wyong, about the same distance Market East to Reading Franklin Street.

Obviously Transport New South Wales is doing something wrong if they're forced to have a rail line the same distance as Market East to Reading Franklin Street. Don't they know that's too far for a regional transport agency to go?

[tgolanos]

At this point we have tap cards all the way from the CBD to Wyong, about the same distance Market East to Reading Franklin Street.

Obviously Transport New South Wales is doing something wrong if they're forced to have a rail line the same distance as Market East to Reading Franklin Street. Don't they know that's too far for a regional transport agency to go?

So if 100km/60mi is too far for a regional transport agency, I guess that explains why TNSW only runs 2 trains the entire 225km/140mi distance from Sydney to Goulburn. Pat, I couldn't have figured it out without you!

What station is 140mi from Suburban? New Haven? Washington DC? Imagine the headaches that would cause for SEPTA.

[jackintosh11]

You were right about what I was talking about with fare evasion. I do think that some people will still try to evade fare, but not many if they have steep fines. Will the number of conductors on the train be reduced? If not, it makes sense that they should do frequent checks. Also, I really think that they should take their time based on what happened to Ventra.

[jackintosh11]

I checked the tariffs, and the fine for fare evasion is $150.

[JimBoylan]

The Philadelphia Parking Authority is discontinuing its use of Smart Cards, due to the expense, even though they had raised rates when they started the program! How long will it be until the roving resume who made that decision moves to S.E.P.TA.?

[Patrick Boylan]

Jim, which decision are you talking about? Having smart cards in the first place, or discontinuing them?
Smart cards made a little bit of sense when they came out, since at that time there were no kiosks that would also accept credit cards. One could use a smart card at a meter instead of coins, so there was actually some convenience for some people. I think because they put kiosks at some of their most popular parking spots, and people with credit cards didn't need to use smart cards in kiosks, the smart card sales plummeted, so that now there might not be enough economies of scale to warrant continuing them.