SEPTA Cancels CRRC multi level order (Was:SEPTA to get multi-level railroad coaches)

[R3 Passenger]

glennk419 please don't forget Chicago's multi-level MU's on the South Shore line, and METRA Electric former Illinois Central, are DC, SEPTA and the rest of the northeast US electrified railroad is AC. I don't know why, but apparently AC current doesn't seem to fit well into a multi-level MU, at least nobody I know of has done it in North America...

...yet.

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

glennk419 please don't forget Chicago's multi-level MU's on the South Shore line, and METRA Electric former Illinois Central, are DC, SEPTA and the rest of the northeast US electrified railroad is AC. I don't know why, but apparently AC current doesn't seem to fit well into a multi-level MU, at least nobody I know of has done it in North America...

...yet.

AC requires additional transformers vs. DC, so that eats up more space. However, regenerative braking these days is so much more efficient at converting excess energy into power instead of bleeding it all off as heat that the space requirements for radiators have shrunk drastically. And that in turn opens up more space to shiv in the transformers without cannibalizing half the lower level. There are still no renderings of that Bombardier power car proposal (which isn't really a pure EMU because it's designed to haul two off-shelf MLV coaches sandwiched between any single-ended power car stuffed in the same carbody). However, it's only supposed to have a maximum 25-or-less seat reduction on the lower level for the transformers with a full-size upper level. Most likely as just as an elongated wall jut on the ends where the stairs would be. A traditional EMU with traction in every car wouldn't be much different, and probably have electronics taking up less space since they wouldn't have to be as overpowered as the MLV power car concept.

NJT hasn't gone for a second look yet since punting their decision. But now that Metro North is evaluating MLV EMU's as a Hudson/Harlem M3 replacement and has an option to pass on their share of the traditional M9's if they find something they like there'll probably be more options floated to re-pique NJT's interest. And they may be waiting for GO Transit's electrification plans to take further shape before revisiting the MLV power car plan. That being a Bombardier product and GO having a 100% Bombardier BiLevel coach fleet a power car compatible with the existing fleet is their easiest entry point into electrics...less of a daunting leap than pure EMU's, but close enough to EMU performance that it beats the pants off push-pull electrics. Their order would stick to the full BiLevel dimensions and not the shorter MLV dimensions for Penn Station clearances, but would otherwise be the same cars. Certainly with a newer concept like power cars or NEC-compatible pure EMU's in the MLV form factor there's safety in numbers if more than one agency places an order. It could snowball like that to SEPTA's (or even MARC's or the MBTA's) advantage to tag along on a like-minded order if somebody like NJT is brave enough to make the first move.

[dowlingm]

I think the difference between Metra and the eastern electrified commuter agencies is that Chicago does not have an NEC to encourage use of high voltage with long separation between substations.

The Alstom Coradia EMU would be an example of an AC double decker - runs at 15kV in Sweden. The SNCF Z 26500 runs at 1.5kV DC and 25kV AC. If manufacturers offered AC/DC catenary vehicles with similar capabilities maybe this could be a solution to some difficult to electrify trackage due to clearance issues without resorting to diesel dual modes or third rail.

[zebrasepta]

How will they run 12 trains with 36 coaches?

maybe they might mix the sets up with bombers and multis?

[25Hz]

glennk419 please don't forget Chicago's multi-level MU's on the South Shore line, and METRA Electric former Illinois Central, are DC, SEPTA and the rest of the northeast US electrified railroad is AC. I don't know why, but apparently AC current doesn't seem to fit well into a multi-level MU, at least nobody I know of has done it in North America.

Any type of MLV-MU woud need a chunk of one (in a pair) to have a shortened double floor section to fit the electrical gear. Singles i don't think would be practical due to loss of seats and need for double cabs, as cab cars all ready lose several seats in the end mezzanine.

Id welcome bathroom equipped MLV's moved by a transit spec ACS-64. Perhaps next round of MU's could have bathrooms too. On a system with stations open only 6 hours a day, some only getting that weekdays, we need some bathrooms on-board. Time to turn the regional subway division into a proper passenger railroad.

[Nasadowsk]

Any type of MLV-MU woud need a chunk of one (in a pair) to have a shortened double floor section to fit the electrical gear.

You've obviously never seen any double decker MUs overseas. The SBB ones in Zurich lose barely any space. They're also 4 car M-T sets, and also about as fast as a SL IV. Maybe a slight bit slower. And that's on the 16 2/3rds Hz system, which is far more demanding than 25Hz.

[Clearfield]

On a system with stations open only 6 hours a day, some only getting that weekdays, we need some bathrooms on-board.

SEPTA is already piloting a plan to make stations available using NPT fare media to unlock the doors.

[bikentransit]

That would be a much embraced and very positive benefit of NPT.

[SCB2525]

I think such a plan would still need CCTV to monitor the station. If homeless and vandalism are concerns now, I can guarantee that the doors being only unlocked by an NPT pass won't stop it. Why wouldn't a ne'er-do-well just wait for the exodus of people coming out to the train and put their foot in the open door to sneak in?

[Patrick Boylan]

We're getting off topic talking about bathrooms in stations, which has little to do with putative bathrooms on multi-levels. I'm the original poster, so I hope I have some clout. If you want to talk about bathrooms in stations please open your own thread.

[philipmartin]

AC vs. DC. At one point near the end of this hour long History of the London Underground it says that new cars are coming with AC traction motors because they have fewer brushes and armature windings than the DC motors. My guess is that they are doing this with DC third and fourth rails.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuFy3j1bJUs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Clearfield]

The topic is supposed to be railroad coaches, to be hauled by locomotives.

Why are we talking about AC vs. DC?

The coaches receive HEP from the locomotive. They are not MU's.

[Patrick Boylan]

We're talking about AC vs DC because even though the article says coaches some participants, rightly in my opinion, debate if SEPTA should get coaches instead of MU's, and so far nobody in North America has used AC MU multilevels.

[MACTRAXX]

Everyone: I do not see SEPTA getting multilevel cars unless they plan to replace piecemeal all of the push-pull equipment
on first thought and unless SEPTA begins to operate trains to more distant points outside the current RRD electrified zone...

I can see a small add-on order for ACS45 locomotives and some of these coaches if SEPTA was to take control of the PHL-
HAR route from Amtrak but unless PennDot decides to drastically cut this funding I do not see this happening...

The trouble spot for multilevel cars is the area just to the W of Suburban Station and the 4/6 track trunk line to 30th
Street Station - I had thought that the Rail Power Project was supposed to increase the height of the wires in this
section but I believe the same catenary heights were kept - probably precluding using multilevel cars into the CCP
tunnel unless this wire could be raised...

Most of SEPTA's RRD has stations close together and the routes tend to be shorter then NJT's or other operations
that use this car type...keeping EMU's the first choice over other equipment...

MACTRAXX

[Nasadowsk]

We're talking about AC vs DC because even though the article says coaches some participants, rightly in my opinion, debate if SEPTA should get coaches instead of MU's, and so far nobody in North America has used AC MU multilevels.

So what? AC multilevels are used in quite a few countries overseas and they work just fine. Heck, the French ones are actually multisystem (25kv, 1.5kv).

Switzerland uses a few types from both Stadler and Siemens (Oddly, Siemens catalogs a double decker EMU, but DB hasn't ordered any yet), and is ordering another generation from Bombardier - with tilt.

The French use a whole slew of them, some multisystem some not. Going back a few decades now. They also feature doors that are far wider than any US stock out there.

The Swedish also are running double deck EMUs now.

The Swiss and Swedish equipment uses 16hz traction, which requires a larger transformer than the 25hz system does.

Double decker EMUs are a catalog item from at least 4 manufacturers now. I don't know why anyone is talking about how feasible they are.