Proposed Rail Extension To King of Prussia, PA

[FatPants]

Sure it is worth it. You are right that it won't be easy due to the way the area was developed; that's why there are 6 proposed routings for the line. To start, the King of Prussia rail expansion will ease the pressure of SEPTA having to run all of these buses in closed door service on the highway, only to sit on the highway for hours. With a proper rail line, the 123 line could be discontinued in its entirety, and those buses could be used elsewhere. Perhaps if enough people use the 100 instead of the 124/125, service could be reduced on those lines as well, using those resources for other local needs. This means that from the first day of service, there will be plenty of riders using the line to go to King of Prussia.

The rt 100 serves a variety of communities that don't have easy access to KOP via public transit. That is why King of Prussia Business Improvement District added their own shuttle bus service called "theconnector", http://connectkop.com/transit-options/theconnector/ even though SEPTA is also providing 4000 daily trips to King of Prussia as well. This is a sharp contrast to what happened with SEPTA's rt 71, which wasn't bringing in much ridership at all, leading the Navy Yard to try and get more people to ride transit with their own shuttle service.

The reason why King of Prussia isn't efficiently developed is because there was nothing to really anchor it, and KOPBID is trying to fix that with this rail extension: http://www.visitkop.com/suburban-sprawl-to-edge-city. Plus, with things like the new Casino and Wegmans, King of Prussia is only going to grow, especially with businesses that are catering to local customers [url]http://www.visitkop.com/wp-content/uplo ... 13.pdf[url], regardless of what happens, so why not work to control that with the local suburban high speed trolley line? With a rail connection to Norristown, perhaps folks who live in KOP will be attracted to the inexpensive housing and move into this town to help revitalize it, especially after the failure of the Logan Square redevelopment.

Besides, Wayne Junction (station and substation) received funding, and what happens on the Blvd won't affect the vast majority of people that will be using this line anyway. We also already have a rail line to the Airport (along with a bus that connects the Broad Street Subway to the Airport). Perhaps one day the Navy Yard will be developed enough and harbor enough transit users to warrant an extension of the subway, but why should that prevent improvements to transit in King of Prussia?

First off, I would hardly offer that one of the benefits of this project is that it frees up buses and operating funds for SEPTA to use elsewhere. While SEPTA isn't in a great position in terms of either capital or O&M funding, issues related to the availability of buses can be easily addressed. I don't know whether SEPTA is hurting for buses or not, but how many buses are in service at any one time on those routes? 15? How big is the SEPTA bus fleet? 1200 buses? Freeing up those buses is barely a benefit.

Second, in the Navy Yard there are four full-sized 40-person buses in operation. Last I heard they were providing 1200 trips per day for the 10,000 people who work in the Navy Yard. The KOP shuttle fleet are 14 person vans. Hardly a similar operation.

Third, there's no doubt that all of these projects are intertwined. All of these projects require a local contribution of one form or another. Supporting mall development and sprawl is a bad idea no matter how you slice it, whether its to KOP, Cherry Hill, or anywhere else. PA has made it clear that transportation funding, specifically transit funding, in the Philly area is simply not a priority. Whether a change in administration will alter this, we still haven't crossed the finish line on any substantial project in quite some time.

The truth is that we need the region to come together as one and select the project that addresses the most significant gap in our regional transit system. As I noted before, KOP is a notable employment center in our region but it isn't the main employment center in our region - Center City is. Diverting funding away from projects that should strengthen our regional core is a bad idea. I don't believe we should be all in on a project that delivers benefits to mostly Montco and the mall. Philly as a region won't advance if we blow our one shot at expanding our system on a project that will provide isolated benefits to folks that live in an area that is, and will continue to be, horribly congested and represents a diversion of resources from much greater priorities.

[Matthew Mitchell]

As I noted before, KOP is a notable employment center in our region but it isn't the main employment center in our region - Center City is. Diverting funding away from projects that should strengthen our regional core is a bad idea. I don't believe we should be all in on a project that delivers benefits to mostly Montco and the mall. Philly as a region won't advance if we blow our one shot at expanding our system on a project that will provide isolated benefits to folks that live in an area that is, and will continue to be, horribly congested and represents a diversion of resources from much greater priorities.

There in a nutshell is one of the key distinctions among different rail advocates: is it more important to be against cars and against suburban sprawl, or is it more important to bring rail and transit to where the market is going?

[bikentransit]

Judging from the news articles this morning, it sounds like the people in Upper Merion clearly do not want this train. It may be a counterprogressive mentality, but the comments were astounding.
In any case, I'm curious if SEPTA's numbers are really there. They are saying 4,000 trips a day. Is that a total headcount for the day, or is that 2,000 people making one round trip?

[Tritransit Area]

Just to clarify, I stated that passengers are taking 4000 trips a day to King of Prussia via SEPTA (with 3 routes regularly overcrowded), and King of Prussia ADDED a shuttle service from both Norristown and Wayne in addition to the existing SEPTA bus lines. On the 123/124/125 alone, 20 buses are used during the peak service hours, and they are regularly overcrowded (especially during the holiday season). The Navy Yard is ONLY served by the dedicated shuttle service, and it was created because SEPTA's route 71 wasn't really producing much ridership anyway. Also, the Navy Yard is south of South Philadelphia; I wouldn't consider that to be Center City at all.

When I mention freeing up buses, I generally mean the cost of operating those buses, including fuel costs, driver hours, and the bus itself. Instead of having buses burning fuel sitting in traffic, and paying the driver to sit in traffic, the money can be used to pay the driver to run the electric trains to King of Prussia. Since the travel time between 69th Street and King of Prussia/Valley Forge would be much less than the existing buses, each operator would be able to run more trips during their shift than a 123/124/125 driver can (since the buses generally take longer to make each run and they have long layover times because of the likelihood that they will be late). You may not need so many drivers for service to King of Prussia via the NHSL since the trains hold more people and would actually supplement the existing NHSL service. Therefore, those drivers can be used elsewhere, and the money saved from not having to pay for fuel to run those buses up and down the highways can be used to pay for enhanced local service to address overcrowding.

I don't see this project as being this areas "one shot" at service expansion. Other regions have built multiple expansions to their rail network; why can't we do the same? There are a number of projects out there that need to be built to address transportation needs (an extension to the Navy Yard and even into Jersey is one of them), so hopefully they can be built one day.

I was at the meeting last night, and I'm taken aback by the very negative slant of this article. The vast majority of the people who spoke in front of SEPTA were in favor of the line, including residents who have lived along the line for decades. The meeting room was full - I don't know how many seats there were, but I'd imagine that at least 50 people were there, if not 100. The 202 alignment was a hard pill to swallow as people instantly thought of the outrageously loud Market Street El, but they didn't outright refuse any sort of service expansion to King of Prussia. I imagine that the 4000 would be roughly about 2000 trips, which still isn't an insignificant number.

[ChrisinAbington]

Judging from the news articles this morning, it sounds like the people in Upper Merion clearly do not want this train. It may be a counterprogressive mentality, but the comments were astounding.

Judging from the same articles, the people of Upper Merion clearly don't like the mall or minorities either, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the county will wall them off anytime soon.
I'd say FatPants arguement may have held some water in the early 80's before the crush of development engulphed KOP. In comparison to KOP, lets look at Center City's version, "The Gallery." Since traffic clearly has not dissappated in KOP despite the Gallery sitting on top of the Center City Commuter Tunnel, and business has aggressively moved into KOP's section of the county, I'd say SEPTA and DVRPC are well overdue in having plans in place to help meet demand.
At some point they have to come to grips with the major employers that have setup shop outside of the city for various reasons. (There are reasons why North Philladelphia and Wayne Junction stations aren't major employment hubs despite their excellent transit access.)

[FatPants]

Just to clarify, I stated that passengers are taking 4000 trips a day to King of Prussia via SEPTA (with 3 routes regularly overcrowded), and King of Prussia ADDED a shuttle service from both Norristown and Wayne in addition to the existing SEPTA bus lines. On the 123/124/125 alone, 20 buses are used during the peak service hours, and they are regularly overcrowded (especially during the holiday season). The Navy Yard is ONLY served by the dedicated shuttle service, and it was created because SEPTA's route 71 wasn't really producing much ridership anyway. Also, the Navy Yard is south of South Philadelphia; I wouldn't consider that to be Center City at all.

When I mention freeing up buses, I generally mean the cost of operating those buses, including fuel costs, driver hours, and the bus itself. Instead of having buses burning fuel sitting in traffic, and paying the driver to sit in traffic, the money can be used to pay the driver to run the electric trains to King of Prussia. Since the travel time between 69th Street and King of Prussia/Valley Forge would be much less than the existing buses, each operator would be able to run more trips during their shift than a 123/124/125 driver can (since the buses generally take longer to make each run and they have long layover times because of the likelihood that they will be late). You may not need so many drivers for service to King of Prussia via the NHSL since the trains hold more people and would actually supplement the existing NHSL service. Therefore, those drivers can be used elsewhere, and the money saved from not having to pay for fuel to run those buses up and down the highways can be used to pay for enhanced local service to address overcrowding.

I don't see this project as being this areas "one shot" at service expansion. Other regions have built multiple expansions to their rail network; why can't we do the same? There are a number of projects out there that need to be built to address transportation needs (an extension to the Navy Yard and even into Jersey is one of them), so hopefully they can be built one day.

I was at the meeting last night, and I'm taken aback by the very negative slant of this article. The vast majority of the people who spoke in front of SEPTA were in favor of the line, including residents who have lived along the line for decades. The meeting room was full - I don't know how many seats there were, but I'd imagine that at least 50 people were there, if not 100. The 202 alignment was a hard pill to swallow as people instantly thought of the outrageously loud Market Street El, but they didn't outright refuse any sort of service expansion to King of Prussia. I imagine that the 4000 would be roughly about 2000 trips, which still isn't an insignificant number.

I don't think anyone misunderstood what you meant by the benefits of freeing up buses. While the costs related to operation of those vehicles aren't nothing, I wouldn't consider this to be almost a rounding error when the total costs of this project are computed. But your point is accepted; however, it isn't like those operating funds will just be transferred to some rail operating account. Those buses and personnel will just be repurposed onto other bus routes. Though this isn't a major point.

I'm not sure what you have seen in this region that would lead you to conclude that we should expect multiple transit capital expansion projects. We can't even get one anywhere near the finish line. Hell, we can barely get in the starting blocks. We aren't NYC, or DC, or LA, or even Pittsburgh, where projects actually move forward to completion, and the region makes hard choices, selecting winners and losers. All of our projects are floating in the ether somewhere, like balloons, waiting for a gust of wind from some unknown place to inch it slightly ahead of other balloons in the sky, one micrometer closer to the finish line. One day it is the Schuylkill Valley Metro, then the NHSL to KOP, or maybe the waterfront LRT, or maybe PATCO to Glassboro, or maybe the Cultural Corridor BRT, or maybe a BRT or LRT on the Boulevard, or the BSL into the Navy Yard, or a new stop on the NEC near the airport...and the list goes on and on and on and nothing gets done.

So tell me again how this project goes the distance. What have you see that would compel you to believe that this project is the one project that has the greatest chance of making it all the way to construction? Better yet, you should ask yourself if this is a project that many of the key players actually want to make it all the way to construction.

[Matthew Mitchell]

Better yet, you should ask yourself if this is a project that many of the key players actually want to make it all the way to construction.

Those key players are showing up personally to the public meetings and engaged with the public: more than I've ever seen in conjunction with a SEPTA project. Would they be out there associating themselves with the project they didn't want it to succeed?

[FatPants]

Better yet, you should ask yourself if this is a project that many of the key players actually want to make it all the way to construction.

Those key players are showing up personally to the public meetings and engaged with the public: more than I've ever seen in conjunction with a SEPTA project. Would they be out there associating themselves with the project they didn't want it to succeed?

Well, unlike most of the other regional transit system expansion projects, this one belongs to SEPTA. They have to show up. I guess a similar question I would ask is how consistent is this project with SEPTA's present narrative on their system and its deficiencies?

[AlexC]

PlanPhilly article about the meeting: http://planphilly.com/articles/2013/07/ ... directions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and a map to describe the 12 routes.

[Matthew Mitchell]

Well, unlike most of the other regional transit system expansion projects, this one belongs to SEPTA. They have to show up. I guess a similar question I would ask is how consistent is this project with SEPTA's present narrative on their system and its deficiencies?

Consistent.

It would be bad management to stop doing long-range planning just because there is a short-term funding problem. Now it's quite possible that there won't be funds to build and operate the branch at the time we're through with this study and the federal grant process, as is the case now with the Wawa project, but if that will be the case, we're going to have a lot worse things to worry about than spending several hundred thousand dollars on a study that can't be acted on..

[loufah]

Is supporting development and poor land use decisions that include a mall and a smattering of suburban office parks the right decision? Or should we really put our money where the jobs really are - Philly? Are we strengthening the City and our metro area by this project [...]

I saw this kind of "focus on the core" parochialism with NJ Transit, which is almost entirely oriented towards getting people into and out of Manhattan. Morris County has a population of half a million - that's a third of Philly's population - and is served by a train line to NYC that goes from 4 trains per hour peak to just 1 train per hour off-peak, and a fleet of around 15 mostly-intra-county buses operating almost exclusively on weekdays. So there are thousands and thousands of cars on the road as people drive to jobs and shopping in the county and nearby. One can argue that it's their own fault for residing there or for working for employers who can't afford the costs of operating in a big city, but it's pretty short-sighted to say that all transit money ought to go to the urban core.

[JeffK]

What have you see that would compel you to believe that this project is the one project that has the greatest chance of making it all the way to construction? Better yet, you should ask yourself if this is a project that many of the key players actually want to make it all the way to construction.

Previous studies have shown the NHSL extension to have one of, if not the, highest ROI of any proposed expansion. A number of major capital infrastructure improvements have already been made in anticipation - e.g. an extra substation and 10 extra N5's. Those dollars are sunk costs. OK, it can be argued that we should just kiss that money goodbye, except that the political constituency for the extension is more solid than it's ever been. The mall and other businesses are in favor, the Board of Supervisors is in favor, SEPTA is in favor, and regardless of one newspaper article many residents are in favor. Canning everything now because Tom Corbett is in office and hoping to restart under Gov. McCord or Gov. Schwartz throws away that political momentum.

As I mentioned in an earlier post the best time to have started planning was when GE and Korvette's opened. But no one has a WayBack Machine AND this region has been notoriously allergic to strategic development so we have to deal with the hand we have. Whether it makes sense or not (and IMO it does not), Upper Merion IS becoming a quasi-urbanized area, with a big draw being that "It's not Philadelphia". There's tons of money to be made so every business that succeeds is a lure for still more. Developers are salivating at the chance to put a building on any and every cm^2 of open land in the township - for example 5 years ago we had to fight tooth and nail to prevent them tearing down the community center to put up high-density apartments. Bringing in the P&W, even this late in the game, may help focus some of that development before the whole area strangles on its success. The stars (or rails?) are starting to align so the opportunity needs to be grabbed.

One concern I have is how forward-thinking this will be. The single car operation of the NHSL might prompt SEPTA to underbuild the viaduct, which could cause issues in the future if ridership demands tandem runs, or might prevent them from ordering future multiple unit vehicles.

I can't remember if it was during or after the meeting but the question of MU operation did come up Tuesday night. The SEPTA rep said current plans are to definitely support 2-car operation and that there's consideration for building some stations to handle triples.

The meeting room was full - I don't know how many seats there were, but I'd imagine that at least 50 people were there, if not 100.

I took a rough count and got to over 150 occupied seats.

The 202 alignment was a hard pill to swallow as people instantly thought of the outrageously loud Market Street El, but they didn't outright refuse any sort of service expansion to King of Prussia.

I spoke to a couple of the people who were opposed and it was clear they weren't even aware of how quiet the cars are. (My guess is they've never even used the line...) I did suggest to one of the suits that they need to do some serious outreach to disabuse people of the idea that there will be shrieking El cars, then MP54s, followed by freight trains

[25Hz]

tti have an excellent example of the need for this project. my girlfriend and i live in fishtown, and my girlfriend works in the KOP mall. most days she takes the el to 69th st, then the one of the 120 series buses to the mall. it takes almost 2 hours to go around twenty miles, unacceptable. two days a week she takes the el to the 100 and gets a ride with a co worker from bridgeport, cuts her ride time in half. before we moved in she lived in KOP, lived right near the mall. the 100 running a walkable distance (as well as a little later) would have made transit a much more attractive option when partying in the city before going home.

As someone who has taken SEPTA all over the place, i can tell you that 1.5-2 hours is the standard time it takes to get all most anywhere, and often a lot of that is time spent waiting because nothing connects to anything in a practical and useful way, unless by accident.

Another gem is take a look at a trip from doylestown station to newtown (4 west rd), leaving doylestown by train at 5:27 PM. Just pause and look at that for a moment. I did that on wednesday, not realizing they cut that bus back to the mall with the most recent schedule change. I got home around 11 pm for no reason. That gap from doylestown, the train is cut back to link belt.....

SEPTA has fundamental issues it needs to fix, or no amount of extensions to KOP or any other place is going to make it tolerable or as useful as it could be.

[Quinn]

Another gem is take a look at a trip from doylestown station to newtown (4 west rd), leaving doylestown by train at 5:27 PM. Just pause and look at that for a moment. I did that on wednesday, not realizing they cut that bus back to the mall with the most recent schedule change. I got home around 11 pm for no reason. That gap from doylestown, the train is cut back to link belt.....

Could the reason have been that you were unaware of the schedule?

[FatPants]

Is supporting development and poor land use decisions that include a mall and a smattering of suburban office parks the right decision? Or should we really put our money where the jobs really are - Philly? Are we strengthening the City and our metro area by this project [...]

I saw this kind of "focus on the core" parochialism with NJ Transit, which is almost entirely oriented towards getting people into and out of Manhattan. Morris County has a population of half a million - that's a third of Philly's population - and is served by a train line to NYC that goes from 4 trains per hour peak to just 1 train per hour off-peak, and a fleet of around 15 mostly-intra-county buses operating almost exclusively on weekdays. So there are thousands and thousands of cars on the road as people drive to jobs and shopping in the county and nearby. One can argue that it's their own fault for residing there or for working for employers who can't afford the costs of operating in a big city, but it's pretty short-sighted to say that all transit money ought to go to the urban core.

NJ and NJT have a track record of making substantial investments all around the state. To say that NJT is almost entirely oriented toward getting people to NYC is not correct, despite the fact that the NYC is the largest employment center in North America. The HBLRT, the RiverLine, the Newark City Subway and numerous other services are evidence of this.

In the Philly area, unlike NJ, we have no substantial, real transit system-expansion project that is anything like any of those non-NYC based NJT services. Not one. So my general point is that we have one shot at this. Let's not blow our one shot on KOP.