Proposed Rail Extension To King of Prussia, PA

[JeffK]

I've always wondered about the viability of extending across the river to Trooper to provide access to the industrial park between Monroe Blvd and Eisenhower Avenue along South Trooper Road. You could also provide an opportunity to divert motorists off of Rt 422 when congestion occurs.

That's been a gleam in the eye of several planners for a long time, but I'm not sure if any options for an additional extension made it into the final proposals.

I've seen the alternatives, but the Mall owners have been pretty clear that they don't want this thing on their property.

That was true 25 years ago when the idea first surfaced. Opinion is 180º opposite today.

... why would anyone switch from the 99/123/24/25?

Because those buses, esp. the 124 & 125, can and do get caught in traffic regularly. A guaranteed 50-minute ride to center city, even with a transfer, is preferable to the possibility of sitting on the Expressway. And as far as the 123 is concerned, its original purpose was to serve as a testbed for direct K of P - 69th Street service. It was proposed by the UTU, not SEPTA's suits, The intent was that if the 123 was successful it would help justify eventual rail service. Clearly the demand is there, although it remains to be seen what effect the idiotic surcharge will have. Bottom line - if and when the extension is ever built the 123 may no longer be needed.

[25Hz]

If the numbers are there, then a feasibility study should be undertaken with each routing option. Can't hurt to simply see how much it'd cost..

[Matthew Mitchell]

If the numbers are there, then a feasibility study should be undertaken with each routing option. Can't hurt to simply see how much it'd cost..

That's the plan. We already have some feasibility info from the past studies.

[scotty269]

If the numbers are there, then a feasibility study should be undertaken with each routing option. Can't hurt to simply see how much it'd cost..

Feasibility studies cost $$$

[mshaw]

Truth be told, I missed the last round of public meetings regarding the KOP rails project.
If memory serves me correct the next set of meetings are scheduled for August.

[zebrasepta]

http://www.metro.us/philadelphia/news/l ... p-project/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The meeting will be held July 16 from 4 to 8 p.m. at the Radisson Hotel at Valley Forge Casino, located at 1160 First Ave. in King of Prussia. It will include an open house-style information session to be followed by a presentation and public testimony session.

[FatPants]

Still trying to figure out how this project actually moves forward. Or whether it should at all.

Neither the state nor SEPTA have demonstrated any shred of ability to raise the local share of the capital costs, assuming this project competes favorable for New Starts funding.

And is this really the best project in the region, because it is going to the whole region rowing together to make it happen. And while the project is basically a rail spur to a suburban mall/suburban office park locale, is this what we as a metro area want? Is the prevailing transit challenge in the region the lack of a fixed rail link between Upper Darby/MFL and KOP? Should the region reward the KOP for its style of suburban sprawl-encouraging behavior? I thought Center City Philly was the employment core of the region. Maybe we should be strengthening our core, not peeling jobs and investment away from the City.

[Tritransit Area]

Still trying to figure out how this project actually moves forward. Or whether it should at all.

Maybe we should be strengthening our core, not peeling jobs and investment away from the City.

Respectfully, it is way too late for that. King of Prussia is very developed, 4000 passengers are riding the bus lines that serve this area, and all the major roadways are jammed heading into King of Prussia and its business district. Considering King of Prussia's location, I don't think you can easily say that "everything should just be in Center City", especially with its incredible highway access to the East, West, North and South of the area. It really is the center of commerce for Montgomery County and actually, outside of Great Valley Corporate Center, Chester County as well.

Look at these numbers (from the http://www.kingofprussiarail.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; website):

57,100 jobs in Upper Merion in 2010; 62,100 jobs in 2040.

12,500 jobs at the King of Prussia Mall and its vicinity, & 19,000 jobs
in office parks.

25M visits/year to King of Prussia Mall (68,000 people/day).

1.5M visits/year to Valley Forge National Historical Park.

4,000 (and growing) average weekday ridership using bus service
to/from the King of Prussia Mall

The need for a rail connection has been there for decades; ignoring it won't encourage companies to move to Center City (there's a reason why they aren't down there). Let's not forget that the NHSL extension will also serve a number of communities, colleges, and Universities along the line that truly need better access to KOP.

I imagine the reason why this project is at the top is that there's an instant return. We already have the people - they are already riding the buses. We already have the train capacity - out of 26 cars, only about 16 are used in daily service, not to mention that SEPTA was able to transport thousands of additional riders to the US. Open last month using that very train line. King of Prussia is already there and developed, with plans for "infill" development, making KOP a much more walkable and transit-friendly community (which is well needed there).

[25Hz]

Like it or not KOP is very built up, and there is a huge number of commercial dollars flowing into and from this area. Access to the turnpike and other routes has basically set this area up to be a major commercial/retail player in the region, and if they want to ease congestion by putting a rail line to or under or through the mall, i say go for it. I think the locals should pay for part of the line or the station or something, as it will benefit those people too.

[JeffK]

Respectfully, it is way too late for that.

Absolutely correct. The time to have planned rather than sprawled was when the Expressway was completed, GE built its R&D facility "on the hill", and EJ Korvette's opened - i.e. more than two generations ago, but of course the car was king in those days. In the intervening decades King of Prussia has become an economic center in its own right, certainly not independent of the city but more like a satellite and planet that are both large enough to support their own ecosystems (Avatar, anyone?)

Some form of P&W extension has been on the docket for at least 25 years but it's been stymied by those factors that we're all familiar with. What's changed in the last few years is that K of P's density has increased to the point where it can no longer function as a completely car-centered community. Even some of the most vocal naysayers are coming around to the idea that future expansion has to be managed, and that rail is part of that management.

Transparency: I'm not defending King of Prussia's increasing urbanization simply because I live in the area - in fact, the opposite is true. But nothing I say or do will reverse that trend so the best path I can take is to support projects like the extension that will mitigate the risk of strangling on our own growth.

[trackwelder]

tti have an excellent example of the need for this project. my girlfriend and i live in fishtown, and my girlfriend works in the KOP mall. most days she takes the el to 69th st, then the one of the 120 series buses to the mall. it takes almost 2 hours to go around twenty miles, unacceptable. two days a week she takes the el to the 100 and gets a ride with a co worker from bridgeport, cuts her ride time in half. before we moved in she lived in KOP, lived right near the mall. the 100 running a walkable distance (as well as a little later) would have made transit a much more attractive option when partying in the city before going home.

[FatPants]

A couple of points. KOP is not efficiently developed and would not be easily served by transit. Our region is in desperate need for transit system expansion but yet we live in a state that isn't committed to making it happen. That means that we seem to have one shot at a system expansion project. Is supporting development and poor land use decisions that include a mall and a smattering of suburban office parks the right decision? Or should we really put our money where the jobs really are - Philly? Are we strengthening the City and our metro area by this project, or are we supporting a project that will likely do nothing to address the outrageous traffic congestion on the roads in and around KOP?

To be even more specific, let's say that the capital cost is $800m. That means in the best of circumstances, the region needs to pony up $400m. Is this is absolute best use of the $400m? More important than Wayne Junction? More important than the Broad Street Line to the Navy Yard and perhaps the airport? More important than BRT, LRT or something better on the Boulevard?

While I feel sorry for the people who have to travel to the KOP area, KOP is a bad model that frankly doesn't deserve this type of regional all-in treatment because that's what it will take to get this done. We would be better off as a region support job growth in the Navy Yard to boost that from its current 10k jobs to 50k and then just extend the BSL there. That project would likely be a third of the cost of the KOP extension, could be implemented quicker, and doesn't reward KOP for what is outrageously bad land use planning.

[Tritransit Area]

A couple of points. KOP is not efficiently developed and would not be easily served by transit. Our region is in desperate need for transit system expansion but yet we live in a state that isn't committed to making it happen. That means that we seem to have one shot at a system expansion project. Is supporting development and poor land use decisions that include a mall and a smattering of suburban office parks the right decision? Or should we really put our money where the jobs really are - Philly? Are we strengthening the City and our metro area by this project, or are we supporting a project that will likely do nothing to address the outrageous traffic congestion on the roads in and around KOP?

To be even more specific, let's say that the capital cost is $800m. That means in the best of circumstances, the region needs to pony up $400m. Is this is absolute best use of the $400m? More important than Wayne Junction? More important than the Broad Street Line to the Navy Yard and perhaps the airport? More important than BRT, LRT or something better on the Boulevard?

While I feel sorry for the people who have to travel to the KOP area, KOP is a bad model that frankly doesn't deserve this type of regional all-in treatment because that's what it will take to get this done. We would be better off as a region support job growth in the Navy Yard to boost that from its current 10k jobs to 50k and then just extend the BSL there. That project would likely be a third of the cost of the KOP extension, could be implemented quicker, and doesn't reward KOP for what is outrageously bad land use planning.

Sure it is worth it. You are right that it won't be easy due to the way the area was developed; that's why there are 6 proposed routings for the line. To start, the King of Prussia rail expansion will ease the pressure of SEPTA having to run all of these buses in closed door service on the highway, only to sit on the highway for hours. With a proper rail line, the 123 line could be discontinued in its entirety, and those buses could be used elsewhere. Perhaps if enough people use the 100 instead of the 124/125, service could be reduced on those lines as well, using those resources for other local needs. This means that from the first day of service, there will be plenty of riders using the line to go to King of Prussia.

The rt 100 serves a variety of communities that don't have easy access to KOP via public transit. That is why King of Prussia Business Improvement District added their own shuttle bus service called "theconnector", http://connectkop.com/transit-options/theconnector/ even though SEPTA is also providing 4000 daily trips to King of Prussia as well. This is a sharp contrast to what happened with SEPTA's rt 71, which wasn't bringing in much ridership at all, leading the Navy Yard to try and get more people to ride transit with their own shuttle service.

The reason why King of Prussia isn't efficiently developed is because there was nothing to really anchor it, and KOPBID is trying to fix that with this rail extension: http://www.visitkop.com/suburban-sprawl-to-edge-city. Plus, with things like the new Casino and Wegmans, King of Prussia is only going to grow, especially with businesses that are catering to local customers [url]http://www.visitkop.com/wp-content/uplo ... 13.pdf[url], regardless of what happens, so why not work to control that with the local suburban high speed trolley line? With a rail connection to Norristown, perhaps folks who live in KOP will be attracted to the inexpensive housing and move into this town to help revitalize it, especially after the failure of the Logan Square redevelopment.

Besides, Wayne Junction (station and substation) received funding, and what happens on the Blvd won't affect the vast majority of people that will be using this line anyway. We also already have a rail line to the Airport (along with a bus that connects the Broad Street Subway to the Airport). Perhaps one day the Navy Yard will be developed enough and harbor enough transit users to warrant an extension of the subway, but why should that prevent improvements to transit in King of Prussia?

[Matthew Mitchell]

The main news from the meeting tonight was the results of preliminary analysis of the long list options.

We are now down to four trunk options:

• PECO right of way
  PECO right of way/Turnpike
  202
  202/Turnpike

The I-76 option was ruled out because of excessive grades (we knew that from previous studies).
The Trenton Cut-off was ruled out because of sharp curves and operational conflicts.
The options going direct from the NHSL to the Turnpike right of way were ruled out because of the height of the structure required and the need to move Hughes Park station.
An R6 extension was ruled out because it wouldn't meet the purpose of the project as well as the other alignments [their conclusion, not necessarily mine].

[Matthew Mitchell]

Second piece of news is that (as speculated earlier) the alignment that would have gone between the Court and the Plaza is no longer available. The mall people intend a 200,000 sq ft expansion that would connect the two malls, and were not interested in a "Disney World" solution running the line through the building.

What that means then is that the alignments coming off the Turnpike would run behind the back of the Court to Mall Boulevard, and the station for the Plaza would be farther away (though the mall people would build a covered pedestrian connection). They then would either turn to the north and follow the industrial track right of way to 23, or turn to the southwest, over the Mall Boulevard ramps to/from 76, and then go up North Gulph Road to 23.

The alignments staying on 202 or the PECO right of way merge at South Gulph Road and 202, and then cross 202 onto North Gulph Road. One of the options for each would turn north at the mall entrance and pass by the mall around Nordstrom's (if I recall the mall layout right) and pick up the industrial track right of way north of the mall. The other option would be to stay on North Gulph Road.

The industrial track alternatives all have an option to swing back to the WSW after crossing First Avenue and terminate near the casino. None of the alternatives get all the way to the NS main in Abrams. Don't know why.

So there's three endpoints and four trunks for a total of 12 alternatives under consideration.