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  • Port Morris Railyard

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Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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 #3747  by NJTRailfan
 
I heard that Pt Morris was a freight yard originally. Now that PM is a passenger yard and that there are plans to electrify from Dover-PM due to no more room in Dover for more train sets will they yard in PM be expanded as well or is it big enough?

I heard the orignal size of the yard during the Lackawanna days was quite big but is it still much bigger then Dover and Great Notch? I'm hoping that the yard is as big as Hoboken so that the yard can handle more train sets esp since service will expand westward with the help of the cutoff.

 #4001  by njt4172
 
NJTRailfan,

Yeah, it was once an intermodel terminal too!!! :P
 #5602  by Tri-State Tom
 
NJT -

Didn't you and I and some others here go all over this in detail just a couple months ago ? Remember your questions on Gravel Place, E. Stroudsburg relative to Port Morris ?

" I heard that Pt Morris was a freight yard originally. "

Was and still is....it's a MAJOR MOW and materials storage/staging site. As we've discussed before, the Comet storage trackage occupies about 30% of the area !

" Now that PM is a passenger yard...."

( sigh )

"....and that there are plans to electrify from Dover-PM due to no more room in Dover for more train sets will they yard in PM be expanded as well or is it big enough? "

Plans ? AFAICT, this is just one of several items on NJ Transit's 'wish list' for/at some future date. Jaw flapping from Warrington doesn't make it a plan. Besides, I haven't heard anyone here explain where all these additional train sets are gonna come from. As has been discussed in other threads, judging by all the empty parking spaces at several major stations, ridership over the Montclair-Boonton line appears to be off substantially. Where's the demand for increased service equating into enough additional equipment that would necessitate a further expansion of Port Morris ?

Yunno, Summit has a yard that sits VACANT at night and over weekends. And why not utilize the Morristown coach yard.....or the property just west of Denville for storage tracks....if needed ?

" I heard the orignal size of the yard during the Lackawanna days was quite big but is it still much bigger then Dover and Great Notch? "

Again, Great Notch is less than half the size of Dover and Dover is about one quarter of the size of the entire Port Morris property.

 #5914  by NJTRailfan
 
The demand can go up on the Montclair/Boonton Line if that line is fully electrified and passengers can go direct to NYP. People do not like to switch trains on top of waiting on a platform longer then they have to.

The Morristown coach yard is now home to the vintage railroad equipment that has taken over the entire yard. It's quite full. Is there really enough space in Denville? I didn't think it's big enough to hold more then a few sidings.

With PM Yard you've got the space to expand plus the two station (Lake Hopatcong and the future Mt Arlington Station where there is demand esp with those towns close or have Routes 80, 46 and 10 nearby) having weekend service and direct NYP access.

When cutoff eventually comes on line you'll have that expanded space to house diesel trainsets that will be doing the cutoff run.

 #7589  by Tri-State Tom
 
NJT -

" The demand can go up on the Montclair/Boonton Line if that line is fully electrified and passengers can go direct to NYP. People do not like to switch trains on top of waiting on a platform longer then they have to. "

Electrification and one-seat riding isn't going to sway alot of folks between Little Falls and Mountain Lakes. The primary problem is and continues to be unacceptible INCREASED travel times into NY Penn ( and Hoboken ! ) since the 'Connection' opened. And instead of improving, the travel times have gotten worse with the additional stops at Secaucus for Montclair-Boonton MidTown Direct riders AND added 'Shirley Time' at Bay Street and Roseville. M-B MidTown Direct trains are slow as molasses LOCALS between Montclair State U. and NYPenn. NJTransit knowingly fibbed to the public on promised time savings to get this project off the ground and the public now knows it !

" The Morristown coach yard is now home to the vintage railroad equipment that has taken over the entire yard. "

The URHS folks and their equipment are 'guests' of NJTransit in this yard.....which was arranged under Warrington's predecessor. Plus, the town of Morristown has forbidden that any restoration work be permitted on site and there is nothing much positive on the horizon that's gonna change that. Add in the fact that a state museum can at best be described as 'in limbo'. NJT could easily reclaim this property.

" Is there really enough space in Denville? I didn't think it's big enough to hold more then a few sidings. "

Take a look at the south side of the ROW just west of the junction. This is where several OOS E60's were stored for several years and AIR this area once hosted 2 additional long sidings in DL&W years.

" With PM Yard you've got the space to expand plus the two station (Lake Hopatcong and the future Mt Arlington Station where there is demand esp with those towns close or have Routes 80, 46 and 10 nearby) having weekend service and direct NYP access. "

I believe NJTransit just added some buildings and yard trackage to augment MOW and maintenance functions at Port Morris.

Lake Hopatcong station is a rathole dump and lightly patronized remnant of what was once a beautiful and popular facility. It is likely THE most dangerous station to access by car and invisible to find unless you know where to look. It's future at the present location is suspect.

Mt. Arlington has the potential to be something akin to MetroPark but everything I've read suggests that NJTransit has something much more modest in mind....which will likely cause this station to be a colossal failure as a viable alternative to the car-driving commuting public on I-80.

" When cutoff eventually comes on line you'll have that expanded space to house diesel trainsets that will be doing the cutoff run. "

Please....the Cut-Off is so far off NJTransit's radar screen it's rediculous to even mention it in casual conversation. When construction crews arrive on site to begin this minimum 2-year project, we can legitimately add it in as a factor. Until then it isn't.

 #7632  by njt4172
 
Tom,

You know the whole URHS and state museum situation is really ridiculous!! If Morristown is NEVER going to let URHS work /restore the cars and if the museum is NEVER going to be built then maybe they should just sell off all their equipment to say a PA or NYS museum. The museum of Pennsylvania will at least get the rolling stock restored and/or returned to running condition.....It really is sad that the politicians in this state don't give a F#*$k about railroad preservation.... :(

 #7774  by NJTRailfan
 
Thanks for the reply Tom.

It's too bad that morristown politicians are against any plans of restoring the rail cars on that site. I'm shocked that those Politicians are willing to alter the area around the Green drasticially with even more redevelopment but yet are totally opposed to restoring our history. I say a meetign shoudl be called and rail fans along with UHRS should demand that they change their minds. If these polticans can do what they did by gettign Head quarters Plaza and will do a mini me version of the project when they redevelope the area aroudn the Green then there should be 0 reason why UHRS can't do some restoration work with the cars.

No thanks to them it looks to me that the 2 PRR GG-1 restoration projects will be on hold along with others.

I still think the Mt arlignton P/R can become a pretty big facility aside from the current parking area and a station layout like what Denville has but with highlevel rather then low level platforms.

Atleast Dover's transit hub will have a 3 or 4 deck parking structure and shops when built. Now if a workign class town like Dover can do it surely a rich town like Mt Arlignton can work with NJT to come up with something.

Also I haven't heard anything yet about shutting down the Lake Hopatcong Station. I do hope the town can some road improvements to make the surroundign roads safe or even have a police crusier there to keep it that way. I hope this alogn with the restoration and make it ADA acessable can work. I'd hate for it to end up like the old P Burg Station.

I'm glad that NJT is upgrading the PM yard. I hope to see catanary posts and wiring go up soon. The NJT crews based in Dover will be glad to hear it since there will be more room for trainsets stored on that area of the line and NYP/weekedn service can be extended further.
Last edited by NJTRailfan on Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 #7779  by njt4172
 
NJTRailfan,

You organize the rally and you can count me in! You will have to supply the cardboard and markers for the picket signs.........

Steve

 #7788  by Sirsonic
 
Looking at this from the view of Morristown now, they get no benifit at all from any work done in Morristown. Nothing. They do get noise, however. Also, considering that nobody here lives in Morristown, as far as I know, I really doubt the Morristown coucil will listen to a bunch of out of towners as they dont represent you. If you can convince Morristown residents to pressure their elected officals, then you are getting somewhere.

I dont think that it is incumbent of Morristown to allow restoration work to be done in Morristown yard when they get no benifit at all from any work done there. The work could be done at the M&E shops, an existing facilty that Morristown can not stop from performing such work.

In a situation like this you need to look for easy workable solutions, not long shots that have little chance of results.

Finally, considering the financial state of New Jersey right now, I would rather money be spent on improving and expanding the NJ Transit system before we spend money on a transpotation museum. Nothing is stopping private individuals from collecting money to pay for a museum, why not do that, instead of waiting in vain for a cash strapped govt to pay for it.

 #7809  by Tri-State Tom
 
Steve -

Political football and such is not and never will be my bag....

NJT -

Hope you understand I was shooting the message and not the messenger above....my orneryness grows more intense with age !

Sir -

" Looking at this from the view of Morristown now, they get no benifit at all from any work done in Morristown. Nothing. "

You know this area. The yard is depressed, down grade from the M&E ROW within a wooded, isolated tract. Between here and the new station parking lot, the woods are a known hang out for vagrants, drug pushers/addicts as well as sexual deviates. ANY more positive and unobtrusive activity such as the productive restoration effort, with night lighting, would be of SIGNIFICANT benefit to the commercial and private residents in this part of Morristown.

" They do get noise, however. "

Define 'noise'. We're talking the 'noise' of hammers, sanders and power spray painting by likely a horde of a half-dozen volunteers/contractors along with the occasional ( once or twice a MONTH - MAX ) of a yard engine moving/re-spotting equipment....all during daytime hours....buffered somewhat by the elevated main imbankment to suppress 'noise' !

The folks objecting to this horrendous 'noise' live in the neighborhood ON THE OTHER SIDE OF AND ABOVE THE M&E ROW....a distance of about 70 to 80 yards from the yard property. The local Baptist church on MLK avenue makes more 'noise' than anything these homeowners are likely to hear from restoration work.

" The work could be done at the M&E shops, an existing facilty that Morristown can not stop from performing such work. "

Like NJTransit, the Morristown & Erie is a working railroad with a bevy of equipment of it's own to rehab and refurbish under their new business initiatives. Their yard is cramped and full and even when it isn't, only one piece of equipment can be worked on at a time ( such as when Tri-State RHS worked on our ex-Lackawanna baggage car on site ).

" In a situation like this you need to look for easy workable solutions, not long shots that have little chance of results. "

That's indeed what was the case with this yard being made available thru the gracious generosity of NJTransit and specifically Jeff Warsh(sp)....was a godsend when PSE&G needed URHS to vacate it's facility. One local councilman got a bug up his arse over the plan and along with a handful of misinformed residents has succeeded in blowing this whole thing way out of proportion.

" Nothing is stopping private individuals from collecting money to pay for a museum, why not do that, instead of waiting in vain for a cash strapped govt to pay for it. "

That indeed may be the alternative.

 #7837  by Sirsonic
 
By noise I mean more noise then there is coming from Morristown yard right now. The URHS is not a resident of Morristown, owns no real estate in Morristown, and does not pay taxes to Morristown. It is unfortunate that Morristown has chosen to be so closed minded on this issue, but it is their town, and they can feel anyway they like.

By the way, the argument you should use is that it is a railroad operation, and the site was previously used as a railyard, as it is now. Maintenence work has always been performed at that location, and therefore the town has no legal avenue to block railroad operations. It should not be too hard, as the yard is still owned by NJT, and not a historical restoration group.

My point in all this is that the argument that is being made right now is way off course. Not many people care about a bunch of old trains, and you are going to have a hard time explaining your point. You can, however, point out that the seperation of powers prevents a local township from regulating railroad operations. In this case, an unused, but never abandoned yard, previously used for storing and maintaining railroad equipment, that an NJT tenant would like to use to store and maintain railroad equipment. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

 #7909  by NJTRailfan
 
Tom, It's ok

Me organize a protest? I wouldn' even know the 1st thing at all. I would need alot of help do organzie and be backed up.

Well if that councilman and his minions don't like the noise then they can get the heck out of Morristown. The noise around The Green is higher then work around a railyard is. I've lived all my life a mere block and a half from the Dover Railyard and not one complaint as far as I can tell has been filed.

Again. If those people don't like it then they can move to some back water hick town up in Sussex or Warren County and no one will bother them but don't take it out on people who want to restore vintage rail cars for 5 days a week o na usual 9-5 schedule. A rail restoration faciltity is no louder then your average auto garage on Main St.

By opening a faciltiy like this you'll get americans who care about their history work damn hard to save it jsut like an average American would work to restore a Victorian styled Mansion or a 57 Chevy. Eventually that area will come back and that facility will serve as a crown jewel of that areas coem back just like Timesquare did when NYC came back.

As far as I'm concerned those guys have 0 right to complain considering they've done nothing for that part of Morristown. As a frequent rider of the Midtown Direct and doing business in Morristown more then once a week, I've seen very little progress and the amt of drug dealers, gang members and hookers seem to grow higher year by year.

 #8254  by Tri-State Tom
 
Sir -

" Seems pretty clear cut to me. "

Me too....but neither of us are attorneys or politicians....and we both know how that game works.