Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

[MACTRAXX]

NJT buying PATCO would do nothing towards building a faster route into downtown Philly. The FRA vs. FTA issue is minor, compared to the fact that NJT cars wouldn't even come close to being able to fit into PATCO's tunnels or make the curves. This sounds just like the reporter in North Jersey, who suggested that to get more trains into New York, NJT should divert some of them to PATH's track and tunnels.

Who said a combined RR would use NJT equipment? If we're really gonna entertain this idea, one would probably electrify the line to AC and run it all with PATCO stock.

In fact there was a serious proposal to extend PATCO service to AC circa 1980. It is discussed in the Summer 2014 issue of the West Jersey Chapter Quarterly. Possible equipment for the longer distance trips past Lindenwold would have been overhauled LibertyLiners/Electroliners or similar. Ultimately instead the line was rebuilt for the Amtrak and NJT service.

RDG Olney and EDM: There was an in-depth study about extending PATCO to Atlantic City in which
there would have been a modified PATCO extension done during that time period - Back in 2007
Bill Vigrass donated two periodical boxes of one-of-a-kind information about this proposed line to
the now-closed NRHS National Library (since March 2008) in Philadelphia. They declined to keep
this study information - but I deemed it important enough to bring the contents to the DVARP
office - they added this to historical information that they have. One thing that I recall that was
studied was the length of third rail gaps that would be necessary at grade crossings - this study
used the LIRR to show examples of these grade crossing gaps...

IL: Get the CMSL to run service between Lindenwold and Atlantic City similar to the service that
ended back in 1981 could be an adequate start...Going into 30th Street Station could present a
problem: Does the RDC roof "bulge" clear the catenary wire overhead on Tracks 1-2 or 9-10 to
allow RDC cars to serve the usual NJT boarding locations there? Another thought: In the past did
the PRSL ever run their RDCs into 30th Street?

MACTRAXX

[Patrick Boylan]

Yes, PRSL did run trains to 30th St. I have seen a photo of a PRSL diesel locomotive hauled train on the upper level, and the person running the slideshow, at either a Metropolitan Philadelphia Railway Association or National Railway Historical Society meeting, said it was regular scheduled service.

[Patrick Boylan]

the slideshow I remember said the 30th St shot was in the 1960's. My good friend google, in answer to prsl+30th+street gives
https://www.ebay.com/itm/PRSL-Train-Arr ... 7675.l2557" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"This unusual post card scene is showing a Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines train, arriving on the upper level at 30th Street Station probably from Atlantic City. The engineer, staring back from the PRR E6s #759 (PRL/CTE), appears to be anxious to procced after the last passenger detrains for their stop at this location so they can move on and terminate at the Broad Street Station. Photographed by E. Stanley Hast, Jr. on Saturday May 22, 1937."

[MACTRAXX]

Yes, PRSL did run trains to 30th St. I have seen a photo of a PRSL diesel locomotive hauled train on the upper level, and the person running the slideshow, at either a Metropolitan Philadelphia Railway Association or National Railway Historical Society meeting, said it was regular scheduled service.

PB: You misread my question - I was referring to the RDC cars specifically on a height clearance
standpoint - I have not seen pictures of those cars in or around 30th Street Station previously.
I do remember from photographs and referring to older PRSL timetables that those trains once
ran through to 30th Street Station - what I do not know is when the actual end of service into
Philadelphia over the Delair Bridge was...MACTRAXX

[EDM5970]

CMSL? RDCs? PTC? BLE? SMART? Seriously?

[ExCon90]

Even the locomotive-hauled PRSL trains only used the Lower Level for departures, with the equipment backing in from the north and stopping at the extreme north end of the platform, with the locomotive outside the overhead. Arriving trains were required to use the Upper Level to avoid running the diesel into the Lower Level. I never heard of them having RDCs idling -- let alone departing! -- in the Lower Level. Regardless of the clearance issue, the diesel emissions alone would rule it out, especially nowadays.

[blockline4180]

The shut down can be easily solved. Turn over the Atlantic City line to the Cape May Seashore Line. The number of "excursion" trips could exceed regular trips. The icing on the cake would be to see the RDCs return to Philadelphia. Although there would likely be hundreds of issues to be resolved, it isn't as outlandish as other ideas mentioned previously.

Sadly, it would never happen running commuter trains as NJT corp does not allow private companies or enterprises to run place of them...I forgot the reasoning, but its clearly in their clause.
However a few "one off" excursions are a different story... Does Tony even have the crew or manpower to do that??

[David]

It would be fun to see, Steve.

[blockline4180]

It would be fun to see, Steve.

No doubt!! I'd pray for it and lobby for it, but would it work??

[ExCon90]

I don't know what the written conditions are, but I can't see the rail unions accepting any such arrangement without raising strenuous objections.

[kilroy]

To overcome that you would need to form a truly regional transportation provider so all the unions were under one organization. And even then I suspect it might be a problem.

A regional provide would probably infringe on too many fiefdoms to ever happen.

[JoeBas]

CMSL? RDCs? PTC? BLE? SMART? Seriously?

Foam cleanup. Foam cleanup on Forum 69!

[mcgrath618]

Diesels in Suburban? I think not-

See, this I didn't even consider. I totally forgot that the AC line is diesel, and that Suburban station can't handle diesel service. And MACTRAXX is right in saying that NJT wouldn't waste their new hybrid locomotives on a line line this.

[lensovet]

rr503 said: "Who said a combined RR would use NJT equipment? If we're really gonna entertain this idea, one would probably electrify the line to AC and run it all with PATCO stock".

You really want to ride a subway car all the way between Philly and AC? And add third rail? That's what you seem to propose here.

The right way to do it, and it isn't going to happen, at least not anytime soon, would be for SEPTA to take over the AC line. Get some dual-modes, like NJT has, and add AC, Pottstown, Bethlehem, a few other lines to the system. Again, not likely to happen.

Yes, I'd be fine with that. PATCO cars have commuter-rail like seats -- really the only noticeable difference for me was the physical size of the cars. On the upside, an electrified PATCO ACY line would allow PATCO to leverage their terrifying acceleration on the long straightaways, saving you a few minutes ACY-Lindenwold. From there, you save another 15 mins to downtown Philadelphia because you aren't looping around North Philly -- something that DMs wouldn't solve unless you built a new tunnel.

this line has 5-minute headways at rush hour and 12-minute headways during the day on weekdays.

where are you going to find the riders to take this all the way to AC? Plus running third rail is not cheap, as you have to install substations fairly regularly. grade crossings are also a potential challenge.

[rr503]

rr503 said: "Who said a combined RR would use NJT equipment? If we're really gonna entertain this idea, one would probably electrify the line to AC and run it all with PATCO stock".

You really want to ride a subway car all the way between Philly and AC? And add third rail? That's what you seem to propose here.

The right way to do it, and it isn't going to happen, at least not anytime soon, would be for SEPTA to take over the AC line. Get some dual-modes, like NJT has, and add AC, Pottstown, Bethlehem, a few other lines to the system. Again, not likely to happen.

Yes, I'd be fine with that. PATCO cars have commuter-rail like seats -- really the only noticeable difference for me was the physical size of the cars. On the upside, an electrified PATCO ACY line would allow PATCO to leverage their terrifying acceleration on the long straightaways, saving you a few minutes ACY-Lindenwold. From there, you save another 15 mins to downtown Philadelphia because you aren't looping around North Philly -- something that DMs wouldn't solve unless you built a new tunnel.

this line has 5-minute headways at rush hour and 12-minute headways during the day on weekdays.

where are you going to find the riders to take this all the way to AC? Plus running third rail is not cheap, as you have to install substations fairly regularly. grade crossings are also a potential challenge.

I mean, just because the line goes to AC doesn’t mean all the trains have to go there too... You could turn all but 1-2 tph in Lindenwold or Westwood.

As for costs, you’re absolutely right — it will not be cheap. I meant the proposal not as some serious push that absolutely should be made, but more as a “here’s what I think would be best for this line in the *long* term.”