NJT MLV EMU Procurement

[Backshophoss]

Any MLV-II design that turned into an EMU will not match the current fleet in passenger capy,
NJT is better off updating the Arrow design instead of trying to reinvent the MLV-II as an EMU

[mtuandrew]

Any MLV-II design that turned into an EMU will not match the current fleet in passenger capy,
NJT is better off updating the Arrow design instead of trying to reinvent the MLV-II as an EMU

Don’t talk too loud, they might buy Rotems.

[njtmnrrbuff]

Maybe NJT should look into getting Siemen's Bilevel EMUs. Siemens equipment is very good. It's not a bad idea, though, for NJT to look into Bombardier MLV MUs.

[R36 Combine Coach]

Any MLV-II design that turned into an EMU will not match the current fleet in passenger capy,
NJT is better off updating the Arrow design instead of trying to reinvent the MLV-II as an EMU

Don’t talk too loud, they might buy Rotems.

Rotem might actually be improving in quality over time. The second batch of Silverliner Vs in Denver haven't seem to have much problems yet.

[pateljones]

Has NJT revealed the bid prices that were received? The filing deadline has passed. Buzz is close to $3 million per car.

[lensovet]

The Caltrain KISS trains wouldn't really make sense.

–single restroom per train
–minimal flexibility in terms of number of cars, with max length of 8 cars
–6" taller than MLVs
–small capacity, 80-100 seats per car vs. MLV's 127-142
–high cost: the trailer option comes out to 3.6 mil/car, but the main order of half a billion for 16 sets of 6 cars each comes out to a whopping 5.74/car.

basically you have a train that will have poor load/unload performance at high level platforms, poor capacity, less flexibility, and potential clearance issues. people are saying $3 million/car is what NJT got. so you have all these compromises for a significantly higher price?

lol.

[Backshophoss]

NJT needs to WAKE UP and abandon the EMU design based on the MLV -II,it's NOT a fesable design!
Rotem seems to have learned from past mistakes,the Denver SL-V has become a proven design and product in service.
It's time for NJT and Rotem design the next gen ARROW NOW!

[R36 Combine Coach]

Rotem seems to have learned from past mistakes,the Denver SL-V has become a proven design and product in service. It's time for NJT and Rotem design the next gen ARROW NOW!

Such design will have major implications, as it likely will also replace the large Silverliner IV class (231 cars in daily service since the mid 70s).

[Nasadowsk]

NJT needs to WAKE UP and abandon the EMU design based on the MLV -II,it's NOT a fesable design!

I don't think that multilevel EMUs per se are not feasible (there's a snotton running around Europe), but taking an already cramped and already overweight unpropelled car and wedging a propulsion system into it, isn't going to do much. Also, the idea of one of these cars hauling a few unpowered ones is silly. You'll lose so much space to propulsion and the end result won't be that much fun for passengers. Look at the old Swiss power cars - fun for a railbuff ride a few stops, and absolute hell for the day in day out commuter...

I also don't get why NJT has such a hard-on for the MLV design. It's nothing great, and the doors on it are way too narrow for a commuter car (among other things).

Rotem seems to have learned from past mistakes,the Denver SL-V has become a proven design and product in service.
It's time for NJT and Rotem design the next gen ARROW NOW!

I don't get the hate for the SL-V. I've been on them a few times, they work about as well as any other EMU in the US. Could they be better? Maybe. I think it's a spec issue more than anything else (coupled with SEPTA's assinine lack of level boarding systemwide on a system that's more an S bahn than anything else). The only thing I can't figure out is why the resistor grids on an AC powered EMU, where 100% catenary regeneration should be possible. I've heard it's not on the Reading side, but the ACS-64s don't have resistor grids...

I have/had the Arrow IV spec here somewhere. The performance section in particular was an eye opener - Trenton to NY in roughly an hour, all stops. The rumor I heard was someone (CAF?) undercut Bombardier, and NJT didn't award as a result.

[blockline4180]

I have/had the Arrow IV spec here somewhere. The performance section in particular was an eye opener - Trenton to NY in roughly an hour, all stops. The rumor I heard was someone (CAF?) undercut Bombardier, and NJT didn't award as a result.

So, are you saying that NJT has not signed anything regarding the new MLV EMU proposal? Maybe there is still a chance they will go with a Rotem SilverLiner V type then! lol
The longer they wait, the longer the Arrow III will remain in service.

[Hawaiitiki]

https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/c ... ain-order/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

An industry source told IRJ’s US sister publication Railway Age that the order will comprise self-powered electric vehicles, each hauling two or three double-deck trailers, with an existing unpowered driving car at each end of the train.
They will not be configured as traditional EMU powered/non-powered married pairs, and as such will be the first of their type in North America

Seems very strange but I imagine this is the only way you could fit a Multi-Level EMU through the North River tunnels. In all honesty, these seems less like EMUs, more like three-four car electric trainsets that you can couple together.

[EuroStar]

This is interesting. If it is a single self propelled vehicle, then it will likely be a cross between an ALP46 and an MLV car. One could likely take the scaled down guts of an ALP46 (transformer, control hardware and such) and stuff them in the lower level of an MLV car, plus of course change of the bogies to ones with electric motors. These things will be somewhat smaller than their counterparts in an ALP46 if the requirement is to haul no more than 3 trailers. With the control cabs not part of this, passengers can use the upper level to pass through. It should be noted though that the seating capacity of this thing will be basically half of the capacity of an existing MLV, but for the lines where they need short 3-4 car trains that will be fine. I have a suspicion that NJT will end up not operating these things as EMUs because EMU operation will require the coaches in between to properly pass the EMU controls which means that the existing coaches will need rewiring (or keep the fleets separate which is a major pain). NJT will definitely need more MLV cabs though as the current roaster is about right for the current fleet.

Now of course, one needs to ask the question: is this any cheaper than just buying more straight MLVs and more ALP46? I have no idea what the answer is. Also, what exactly is the operational benefit that makes this worth it over more MLVs and ALP46s? An ALP46 with 3 MLV coaches will accelerate reasonably well even with tight stop spacing and curves (such as on the Gladstone branch), probably not as well as married pair EMUs, but at least as well as this proposed "thing". So why?

Request to the Administrator: Please consider merging this thread with the one about Bombardier: "Bombardier to bid on New Jersey rail contract: sources".

[DutchRailnut]

Hmm kind of like the MDDM of Dutch railroads ? a proven design .
https://www.flickr.com/photos/11057/8496561061" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ryand-Smith]

This is interesting. If it is a single self propelled vehicle, then it will likely be a cross between an ALP46 and an MLV car. One could likely take the scaled down guts of an ALP46 (transformer, control hardware and such) and stuff them in the lower level of an MLV car, plus of course change of the bogies to ones with electric motors. These things will be somewhat smaller than their counterparts in an ALP46 if the requirement is to haul no more than 3 trailers. With the control cabs not part of this, passengers can use the upper level to pass through. It should be noted though that the seating capacity of this thing will be basically half of the capacity of an existing MLV, but for the lines where they need short 3-4 car trains that will be fine. I have a suspicion that NJT will end up not operating these things as EMUs because EMU operation will require the coaches in between to properly pass the EMU controls which means that the existing coaches will need rewiring (or keep the fleets separate which is a major pain). NJT will definitely need more MLV cabs though as the current roaster is about right for the current fleet.

Now of course, one needs to ask the question: is this any cheaper than just buying more straight MLVs and more ALP46? I have no idea what the answer is. Also, what exactly is the operational benefit that makes this worth it over more MLVs and ALP46s? An ALP46 with 3 MLV coaches will accelerate reasonably well even with tight stop spacing and curves (such as on the Gladstone branch), probably not as well as married pair EMUs, but at least as well as this proposed "thing". So why?

Request to the Administrator: Please consider merging this thread with the one about Bombardier: "Bombardier to bid on New Jersey rail contract: sources".

Its acceleration tbf, an EMU even a porky one will out accelerate a power car (as the M8 and M7 both show). Also, the perverse nature of EMU vs power cars means 3 car and below trains do not make much sense for power to weight ratios (its absurd to do).

he Fleet Strategy provides for the
purchase of 58 Multilevel EMU power units to replace Arrow III power units. The new units
represent an efficiency improvement in that one unit will provide sufficient power to pull two
non-powered units – effectively creating a three car sub-consist. This compares favorably with
the two-car “married pair” Arrow III EMUs which have drive components in both units. Instead of
replacing every Arrow III with a new powered unit, NJ TRANSIT will only need to replace every
third Arrow III unit with a powered unit. This approach also allows NJ TRANSIT to use Multilevel
coaches that were previously purchased to expand service to instead serve as the second and
third non-power unit in a new three car sub-consist. The propulsion technology to be utilized is
similar to that contained in NJ TRANSIT's ALP46 and ALP45-DP locomotive


https://www.njtransit.com/AdminTemp/njt ... et2014.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[lensovet]

Thanks for the link. Amazing how all this guessing and armchair expertise was being debated in the other thread when apparently NJT laid out this entire strategy 4 years ago in a public document.

Makes sense though.