American Dream Opening and Expanded Meadowlands Rail Service

Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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nightmare403
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Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:47 pm
Location: Jersey City, NJ

Re: American Dream Opening and Expanded Meadowlands Rail Service

Post by nightmare403 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:17 pm

from what ive seen so far there is a program for the 85 to American dream because the nabi's have the side speakers but the display doesnt show
o

pumpers
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:56 pm

Re: American Dream Opening and Expanded Meadowlands Rail Service

Post by pumpers » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:47 pm

Ken W2KB wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:02 pm
pumpers wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:14 pm
Got it. I surmised that this was different from the Secaucus loop, but was trying to understand how it would increase service. Now I know - by avoiding the time for the crew to change ends, mainly.
So now I ask - how long does that take? Are there a new set of tests, e.g. brake tests, or some other long procedure when they switch ends?
My recollection / estimate is that the time to conduct the tests when the NJT crew changes ends at High Bridge station is about 5 minutes.
Hmm. Five minutes. Doesn't sound to me like that's worth a billion or so, crossing Route 3... Or maybe they could just build an elevated loop in the parking lot, perhaps circling around the football stadium, connecting back to the existing Meadowlands spur.

NIMBYkiller
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Location: Port Washington

Re: American Dream Opening and Expanded Meadowlands Rail Service

Post by NIMBYkiller » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:07 pm

The good thing about building the through route is that an expanded main line schedule could operate via Meadowlands full time.

nightmare403
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Location: Jersey City, NJ

Re: American Dream Opening and Expanded Meadowlands Rail Service

Post by nightmare403 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:17 pm

There is also a connection that connects the pascack valley line on both ends
o

NIMBYkiller
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Location: Port Washington

Re: American Dream Opening and Expanded Meadowlands Rail Service

Post by NIMBYkiller » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:15 am

Oops, that's what I meant, PVL, not the main

Hawaiitiki
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Re: American Dream Opening and Expanded Meadowlands Rail Service

Post by Hawaiitiki » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:25 am

EuroStar wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:06 pm
The loop referred to in the article is a long forgotten proposal to continue the Meadowlands line from its terminus with a bridge over Route 3 and then merge back into the Bergen Line via a grade separated junction just before the bridge over the Hackensack River. The idea of such a loop is to avoid switching ends by the crew at the Meadowlands in order to speed up service to subway level frequencies. I am not sure if this was coupled with some other loop or another way to turn the trains quickly on the other side of Secaucus. In any case, the idea of such a loop predates me, and I do not know the details of the proposal.
There's an official map on the interwebs somewhere about this old proposal. The map also suggests that a connection be built to the West Shore Line across the Meadows to link it to the Hoboken division. Map must have been made right before the 2008 stock market crash and the Christie years... ;)
Double Track, Grade Separate, and Electrify America!

Backshophoss
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Re: American Dream Opening and Expanded Meadowlands Rail Service

Post by Backshophoss » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:27 pm

NJt can barely cover service NOW,with equipment and crew shortages,There seems to be enough bus service to this overblown mall! :P
Wait for the rail side to get squared away and covering all regular service before committing equipment and crews to this!!!
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!

CentralValleyRail
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Location: Wayne, NJ NJTR-MP (20.8)

Re: American Dream Opening and Expanded Meadowlands Rail Service

Post by CentralValleyRail » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:26 pm

Ken W2KB wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:02 pm
pumpers wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:14 pm
Got it. I surmised that this was different from the Secaucus loop, but was trying to understand how it would increase service. Now I know - by avoiding the time for the crew to change ends, mainly.
So now I ask - how long does that take? Are there a new set of tests, e.g. brake tests, or some other long procedure when they switch ends?
My recollection / estimate is that the time to conduct the tests when the NJT crew changes ends at High Bridge station is about 5 minutes.
This is true, but your dealing with a union so that 5 minutes takes thirty to an hour.

Tom V
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:40 pm

Re: American Dream Opening and Expanded Meadowlands Rail Service

Post by Tom V » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:55 am

NJ Transit investment / expansion would be to improve the Meadowlands link by extending it further South across Route 3 connecting back on the Main/Bergen line. This would allow for thru running of Pascack Valley line trains and establishing the Meadowlands Sports Complex station a full time station to serve American Dream as well as Sports events.

Service to the Sports complex station would be greatly improved as the trains do not need to reverse direction back over the way trains come into the station. Trains can be laid up in Hoboken and dispatched to loop through the Sports complex and back to Secaucus jct. and or Hoboken. Trains can also be dispatched after events to pick up passengers at the complex who are heading to points North by offering the thru service of Pascack Valley line trains and or looping the Bergen/Main/Port Jervis trains through the Sports complex and then back onto the Main/Bergen line for points North.

This would realize the true potential of the link which really does not work today as it should. There are well documented problems from concerts, the Super bowl etc.. where it was more hassle than it was worth for patrons who were piled up either at the Sports complex or Secaucus jct.

Perhaps a public / private financing for,UAL could be used to complete the loop.

EuroStar
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Re: American Dream Opening and Expanded Meadowlands Rail Service

Post by EuroStar » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:28 am

So NJT is looking for ways to move people to and from the mall and held an Innovation Challenge Event. Supposedly they are looking for innovative ideas how to build, operate and finance something to move people between the mall and Secaucus Junction. What exactly do they expect the private industry to tell them? What kool-aid is NJT drinking? I bet you all of the industry and university experts were there hoping to eventually get on the gravy train of some state funded project. There is no reasonable way for a private enterprise to finance anything, even a bus between the mall and the station.

Here is some math. The Mall of America generates 40 million visitors per year. Let's assume that American Dream gets the same. Assume that one third, that is 14 million of them take the "thingy" that NJT is trying to conceive. There is no reasonable way to charge more than $4 each way. Note that currently the bus run by NJT charges only $2.55 each way. Practically none of these 14 million visitors live at Secaucus Junction, so they all will need to pay for an extra train ticker or some other means to get to Secaucus Junction (currently $4.50 from NYP). For comparison the current bus from the Porth Authority to the mall charges $9.00 each way.

At this point the annual revenue of the "thingy" is 14 million times $4 times 2 (going each way)=$112 million. Quite optimistically we will assume that operating costs eat only half of that revenue, so we are left with $56 million to cover the capital costs. At 5% interest a 30 year self amortizing bond with annual payments of $56 million has an initial amount of about $800 million. Let's be generous and make this $1 billion. Here we have ignored the fact that this is quite a risky venture, that equity capital will require much higher rate of return and that this "thingy" will not be operational for at least 5 years while construction proceeds. The conclusion though is that the "thingy" cannot cost more than $1 billion.

At this point is is pretty obvious that nothing with a dedicated right of way can be built between the mall and the station for $1 billion. Any dedicated right of way will require at least one bridge over route 3, at least one bridge over the Hackensack, at least one bridge over conventional rail line and needs to traverse an environmentally sensitive marshes with substantial pre-existing buildout. It is not happening for $1 billion. The only "thingies" that have a shot at happening for less than $1 billion use pre-existing rights of way, and by that I really mean roads, not rail. So more buses it is going to be. Get ready for the eventual traffic jams if this mall really matches the visitors of the Mall of America.

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