Bowery and Canal st. Questions?

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jbn7474
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Bowery and Canal st. Questions?

Post by jbn7474 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:49 pm

I was in NYC this past weekend riding around on the lines and was quite intrigued when I was at Bowery st waiting for a train. I noticed through the wall there was an abandoned platform with tracks removed, but the third rail still intact. When I went to Canal St. I noticed the same thing. I figured there was a tunnel paralled with the active line abandoned. The kid in me so wanted to hop down and sneak in for a peak and take pics, but figured it wouldnt be a good idea so I didnt lol. Do they ever offer tours of abandoned places. I must of sat there and missed a couple of trains just cause I was so interested on what was beyond that wall. Any stories about that area would be greatly appreciated.

Kamen Rider
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Re: Bowery and Canal st. Questions?

Post by Kamen Rider » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:04 pm

the current system north track was built as the system south express of the 4 track Centre Street Line, opened in 1913 between Essex (opened 1908) and Chambers.

the line was built to cope with heavy southbound traffic. In order to allow enough space for all trains at chambers street (which then had service over the manhattan bridge), the tracks west of essex split into a 4 track configureation, with the center two tracks ending at canal street.

Canal and bowery were condensed from 4 tracks 2 platforms to 2tracks 1 platform in September 2004, since it was figured that having two platforms was too much. the old northbound local was kept in place as storage and an emergency bypass. what you saw through the wall was the old northbound express, which was pulled up.
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flexliner
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Re: Bowery and Canal st. Questions?

Post by flexliner » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:54 am

I memory serves me originally at canal were not the two center "express" tracks the stub tracks and the outside "local" tracks the thru tracks? now the "downtown platform" with its 2 tracks is used thru in both directions and the "uptown" tracks are stub to the south. how long did this reconstruction take? was any tunnelling and track laying needed or was it just a matter of tearing down a wall or two?

Allan
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Re: Bowery and Canal st. Questions?

Post by Allan » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:00 am

Tours of abandoned stations were discontinued a number of years back for safety and security reasons.

In one instance there was some old equipment being stored on a platform (91st St-Broadway if I remember correctly) and despite warnings and the obvious hazard some people on the tour went ahead and got themselves hurt. I think there was resulting litigation. Anyway after that the tours were stopped.

The only tour of an abandoned station these days is the IRT City Hall Station and that is reserved solely for members of the NY Transit Museum. There are generally about 8 tour dates per year (2 per quarter - but 2 tour times on the assigned days). The ones in this quarter are:

May 14 1:30 PM - 2:30 PM and 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM
June 12 1:30 PM - 2:30 PM and 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM

However, you can see the station by stating in the #6 train as it loops around from the downtown platform to the uptown platform of the Brooklyn Bridge station. The 7th or 8th cars are generally good for viewing as the train has to go around the loop slowly and may have to stop if there is a train already at the uptown platform at Brooklyn Bridge. In spite of what MTA personnel may say - the loop is considered "revenue trackage" meaning that people can stay on the train as it goes around the loop. The recorded announcements also say "This is the last downtown stop on this train. The next stop is the uptown platform at Brooklyn Bridge". That, of course, doesn't prevent the conductor from making a manual announcement - such as "No passengers"

Allan
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Re: Bowery and Canal st. Questions?

Post by Allan » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:04 am

flexliner wrote:I memory serves me originally at canal were not the two center "express" tracks the stub tracks and the outside "local" tracks the thru tracks? now the "downtown platform" with its 2 tracks is used thru in both directions and the "uptown" tracks are stub to the south. how long did this reconstruction take? was any tunnelling and track laying needed or was it just a matter of tearing down a wall or two?
Reconstruction took several years and didn't involve any tunneling. All that was required at Canal Street was the removal of the wall at the south end of the platform and the installation of connecting track just south of the station to the "stub tracks".

flexliner
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Re: Bowery and Canal st. Questions?

Post by flexliner » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:50 am

was there ever a service pattern even in distant past that made use of the (old) center stub tracks at canal? (as a terminal station)
another question - with the Chrystie connection and reconfig of the manhattan bridge tracks, was there a reason to totally disconnect the nassau st tracks from the south bridge tracks and the broadway tracks from the north bridge tracks? could they have left juctions to both sides of the bridge to allow for service flexibilty?

what I mean is the the north tracks would be fed in from the 6th ave line (new) as well as the broadway line (old pattern to be used in emergency) and the south tracks would be fed in from the broadway line (new pattern) as well as the nassau tracks (old pattern, unused but available)

Allan
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Re: Bowery and Canal st. Questions?

Post by Allan » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:58 am

flexliner wrote:was there ever a service pattern even in distant past that made use of the (old) center stub tracks at canal? (as a terminal station)
another question - with the Chrystie connection and reconfig of the manhattan bridge tracks, was there a reason to totally disconnect the nassau st tracks from the south bridge tracks and the broadway tracks from the north bridge tracks? could they have left juctions to both sides of the bridge to allow for service flexibilty?

what I mean is the the north tracks would be fed in from the 6th ave line (new) as well as the broadway line (old pattern to be used in emergency) and the south tracks would be fed in from the broadway line (new pattern) as well as the nassau tracks (old pattern, unused but available)
There was a service that lasted into the late 1960's called the "Broadway Short Line" which ran from Canal Street over the Williamsburg Bridge to Atlantic Avenue. (There were longer versions of this line in earlier years but it ended service as a Canal St to Atlantic Avenue line.

[I have a copy of a 5 Borough Street Guide of New York by Geographia Map Co. dated 1955 (MCMLV) which shows this line]

http://www.robkopolovicz.com/brooklynshortline.html

I think that due to changing ridership patterns there was a declining need for service on the Nassau Street Loop so the northern tracks were severed.

There is enough flexibility on the Brooklyn side (after they rebuilt that entire area) for service needs. That was proved back in the 1980's and 1990's when they did work on the MB and had a version of the B and D operating on Broadway and later when they had a version of the Q operating on 6th Av to 21st - Queensbridge.

Passenger
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Re: Bowery and Canal st. Questions?

Post by Passenger » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:24 pm

Re: Disconnecting the Nassau Loop

Wouldn't be fair to say that not disconnecting it avoided slowing things down with too many switches that would hadly ever be used anyway?
Nonsense is nonsense, but the history of nonsense is a very important science.

Allan
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Re: Bowery and Canal st. Questions?

Post by Allan » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:10 pm

Passenger wrote:Re: Disconnecting the Nassau Loop

Wouldn't be fair to say that not disconnecting it avoided slowing things down with too many switches that would hadly ever be used anyway?
That area is slow speed anyway (ramp up for trains going on the bridge and speed control on the ramp down for the trains coming off the bridge) so I don't think the switches would have made things any slower. What it did was remove little used switches that would have to been maintained.

flexliner
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Re: Bowery and Canal st. Questions?

Post by flexliner » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:30 am

"There is enough flexibility on the Brooklyn side (after they rebuilt that entire area) for service needs. That was proved back in the 1980's and 1990's when they did work on the MB and had a version of the B and D operating on Broadway and later when they had a version of the Q operating on 6th Av to 21st - Queensbridge."

true flexibility on the brookkyn side but leaving the various switches on the manhattan side would make things even more flexible and would have obviated the need for different versions of the Q (at least) by allowing Broadway trains to run from Brooklyn on either side of the bridge and connect back to Broadway in manhattan.
wonder if there is/was enough tunnel space on the Manhattan side to allow for a crossover from the south Bridge tracks to 6th avenue. yes, more switches but the ultimate in flexiblity. (taking into account fewer trains per line per hour if all trains ran only one one set of bridge tracks for whatever reason. but such a setup could be used at nite where there are fewer trains anyway possibly allowing for maintenance on the other bridge tracks, if that can be done at nite.....)

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