Building PATH for Trainz, Questions

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

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Ken S.
Posts: 1624
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Location: Whiting, NJ

Building PATH for Trainz, Questions

Post by Ken S. » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:01 pm

I am making a layout of the PATH for Trainz and have some questions based upon the research I am doing for this project as I am including provisions for at least 4 extensions of the system.

1. Was there a plan to send the H&M to the LIRR's Flatbush Avenue Station? I'm planning to include this provision as a another station at the WTC Complex.
2. Is this car facility in Hoboken still in operation? I have two tracks that branch off at Hoboken and may be curving to the north as a separate project or kept they way they are to represent this facility.
3. Was the East Side Line ment to operate over the Lexington Avenue IRT tracks and into a new station at GCT?
4. I understand that the H&M was planned to serve the CNJ Terminal. Would this service if built be ran today as CNJ-33rd, CNJ-HOB, or CNJ-GCT assuming that got built?
5. I'm planning 3 stops south of Newark at South Street, where Broad Street merges with Route 21 and the third unless I come up with something better is planned for the Airport somewhere.

Terry Kennedy
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:24 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Building PATH for Trainz, Questions

Post by Terry Kennedy » Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:27 pm

Ken S. wrote:1. Was there a plan to send the H&M to the LIRR's Flatbush Avenue Station? I'm planning to include this provision as a another station at the WTC Complex.
Nothing that even made it to a preliminary design phase.*
2. Is this car facility in Hoboken still in operation? I have two tracks that branch off at Hoboken and may be curving to the north as a separate project or kept they way they are to represent this facility.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. The only thing that was actually built was a single car lift that took cars from Track 3 in Hoboken to street level. I don't know offhand what sort of H&M yard trackage (if any) was at street level there.
3. Was the East Side Line ment to operate over the Lexington Avenue IRT tracks and into a new station at GCT?
Is this an H&M question? The only parts that got to the design phase was up 6th Ave and then over to GCT, and a spur from 9th St. to Astor Place.
4. I understand that the H&M was planned to serve the CNJ Terminal. Would this service if built be ran today as CNJ-33rd, CNJ-HOB, or CNJ-GCT assuming that got built?
Unknown. The provisions for tracks that would have gone to CNJ are at the west end of Grove St. Westbound you can see a signal shed, eastbound has a boarded up wall.

If you're going to build the hypothetical extensions, there's a 3rd routing where trains from 33rd diverge left to Pavonia or right to Hoboken - after diverging left, there is a spot where they would have then gone straight (instead of curving south) which would take you out into the Meadowlands. And of course, there's the Hudson Terminal to Pavonia (Erie) which had the most actual construction of any of these 3 (a few hundred yards parallel to Tunnel F, a hundred feet or so under E, and the full crossover north of Pavonia).
5. I'm planning 3 stops south of Newark at South Street, where Broad Street merges with Route 21 and the third unless I come up with something better is planned for the Airport somewhere.
Purely hypothetical.

You could include the Henderson Yard (at Grove St.) which was an amazing piece of design - a full yard including shops and a ramp down to the Grove St. station, all in one square block.

* Railroads were required to file a notarized set of plans with the state for any routes they were considering. This included a cash deposit which was generally refundable if the route was not built. I have what I believe is the complete set of originals of these.

Here is a map of many of the never-built sections: 1.5MB JPEG You can spot traces of some of these if you look carefully - if you look at the bottom-most red line on that image, you'll see that it would have extended the north/south part of the route southward past the current Grove/Exchange routes. Next time you're going toward Exchange Place from Grove St, take a look and you'll see a very brief piece of the tunnel that's in iron rings instead of the normal concrete. That's where the un-built route crosses the existing tunnel.

Ken S.
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:49 pm
Location: Whiting, NJ

Re: Building PATH for Trainz, Questions

Post by Ken S. » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:55 pm

Terry Kennedy wrote:
Ken S. wrote:1. Was there a plan to send the H&M to the LIRR's Flatbush Avenue Station? I'm planning to include this provision as a another station at the WTC Complex.
Nothing that even made it to a preliminary design phase.*
I found a map on Wikipedia that looked like it showed H&M to Brooklyn.
2. Is this car facility in Hoboken still in operation? I have two tracks that branch off at Hoboken and may be curving to the north as a separate project or kept they way they are to represent this facility.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. The only thing that was actually built was a single car lift that took cars from Track 3 in Hoboken to street level. I don't know offhand what sort of H&M yard trackage (if any) was at street level there.[/quote]

That's what I'm thinking of. So it's not really worth including, I'll let NJT deal with that what is now a Tunnel to Nowhere then.
3. Was the East Side Line ment to operate over the Lexington Avenue IRT tracks and into a new station at GCT?
Is this an H&M question? The only parts that got to the design phase was up 6th Ave and then over to GCT, and a spur from 9th St. to Astor Place.[/quote]

So were the East Side trains supposed to terminate at Astor Place? The leads from the 33rd Street Line are already in place, I was just wondering what to do with them and sending it to GCT via the IRT seems like the best idea.
4. I understand that the H&M was planned to serve the CNJ Terminal. Would this service if built be ran today as CNJ-33rd, CNJ-HOB, or CNJ-GCT assuming that got built?
Unknown. The provisions for tracks that would have gone to CNJ are at the west end of Grove St. Westbound you can see a signal shed, eastbound has a boarded up wall.

If you're going to build the hypothetical extensions, there's a 3rd routing where trains from 33rd diverge left to Pavonia or right to Hoboken - after diverging left, there is a spot where they would have then gone straight (instead of curving south) which would take you out into the Meadowlands. And of course, there's the Hudson Terminal to Pavonia (Erie) which had the most actual construction of any of these 3 (a few hundred yards parallel to Tunnel F, a hundred feet or so under E, and the full crossover north of Pavonia).[/quote]

That junction is already done as is the one between Newport, Grove, and Exchange Place which contains the CNJ leads coming from Hoboken/33rd/East Side.
5. I'm planning 3 stops south of Newark at South Street, where Broad Street merges with Route 21 and the third unless I come up with something better is planned for the Airport somewhere.
Purely hypothetical.

You could include the Henderson Yard (at Grove St.) which was an amazing piece of design - a full yard including shops and a ramp down to the Grove St. station, all in one square block.

* Railroads were required to file a notarized set of plans with the state for any routes they were considering. This included a cash deposit which was generally refundable if the route was not built. I have what I believe is the complete set of originals of these.

Here is a map of many of the never-built sections: 1.5MB JPEG You can spot traces of some of these if you look carefully - if you look at the bottom-most red line on that image, you'll see that it would have extended the north/south part of the route southward past the current Grove/Exchange routes. Next time you're going toward Exchange Place from Grove St, take a look and you'll see a very brief piece of the tunnel that's in iron rings instead of the normal concrete. That's where the un-built route crosses the existing tunnel.[/quote]

I've already built the trackwork in that area and it was hard as I had to fit the Newark-WTC Line in there which now has a very steep climb/drop near Exchange Place since I had to fit the crossover in there.

Does that yard still exist?

Terry Kennedy
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:24 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Building PATH for Trainz, Questions

Post by Terry Kennedy » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:07 pm

Ken S. wrote:So were the East Side trains supposed to terminate at Astor Place? The leads from the 33rd Street Line are already in place, I was just wondering what to do with them and sending it to GCT via the IRT seems like the best idea.
That's actually an interesting question. It would have been the only place where trains would cross opposing traffic at grade, and thus doesn't make a lot of sense for a single station. The crossover from A to B west of 9th St. may have had something to do with the Astor extension.
Does that yard still exist?
No, it was removed many years ago. Google Maps shows it as a mostly-vacant lot (aside from the new-ish 2nd PATH entrance and some construction trailers).

Ken S.
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:49 pm
Location: Whiting, NJ

Re: Building PATH for Trainz, Questions

Post by Ken S. » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:00 pm

Terry Kennedy wrote:
Ken S. wrote:So were the East Side trains supposed to terminate at Astor Place? The leads from the 33rd Street Line are already in place, I was just wondering what to do with them and sending it to GCT via the IRT seems like the best idea.
That's actually an interesting question. It would have been the only place where trains would cross opposing traffic at grade, and thus doesn't make a lot of sense for a single station. The crossover from A to B west of 9th St. may have had something to do with the Astor extension.
Does that yard still exist?
No, it was removed many years ago. Google Maps shows it as a mostly-vacant lot (aside from the new-ish 2nd PATH entrance and some construction trailers).
That's why I'm thinking of running it up the IRT to GCT.

pnaw10
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:41 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY - formerly New Hamburg

Re: Building PATH for Trainz, Questions

Post by pnaw10 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:01 pm

Ken S. wrote:I am making a layout of the PATH for Trainz and have some questions based upon the research I am doing for this project as I am including provisions for at least 4 extensions of the system.
Have you tried a game called "World of Subways" by any chance? Volume 1 is a simulation of the entire PATH system. Of course, you can't alter the routes -- for example, to add the 4 extensions you mentioned -- but if you're just looking to run trains on PATH, you might find this to be much quicker and easier. I was surprised to see nobody else on here had posted anything about World of Subways yet.

I've never ridden PATH, but comparing photos to the simulation, I have to say they did a pretty good job. I actually find it more realistic (and a bit easier to use) than Trainz in many aspects, though I admit I only have Trainz Classics of the Metro-North Harlem Line, so I might not have a completely "fair" impression of Trainz.
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