The frustrating 10 second pause

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

Moderator: GirlOnTheTrain

Kamen Rider
Posts: 684
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:34 pm
Location: NYC

Re: The frustrating 10 second pause

Post by Kamen Rider » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:16 pm

railfan365 wrote:Which railroad is NTT?
NTT stands for "New Tech(nology) Train". A nickname (in the vien of Redbird and Arnine) for the 142s, 143s and 160s.

There are stations with extra CR boards. They are marked with thier types (IE, on the L, you can still find two boards on one platform, labeled for the R143/R160 and R40/R42). Other stations use one board, but diffrent Stop markers. An M train at 47th-50th pulls up short of where the F would stop. The C trains using 44s/46s would operator no diffrent than an A running local.
仮面ライダー / Kamen Rider
Rider JUMP! Rider KICK!

railfan365
Posts: 613
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:55 am

Re: The frustrating 10 second pause

Post by railfan365 » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:43 am

Kamen Rider wrote:
railfan365 wrote:Which railroad is NTT?
NTT stands for "New Tech(nology) Train". A nickname (in the vien of Redbird and Arnine) for the 142s, 143s and 160s.

There are stations with extra CR boards. They are marked with thier types (IE, on the L, you can still find two boards on one platform, labeled for the R143/R160 and R40/R42). Other stations use one board, but diffrent Stop markers. An M train at 47th-50th pulls up short of where the F would stop. The C trains using 44s/46s would operator no diffrent than an A running local.
Thanks for the prompting on NTT. As to the other part of your post - on the lines that presently or recently had R40's or 42's running of course would have different conductor positions marked because R04's/42's consisting of 4 or 8 cars had the conductor posted a car length off center rather than at the center as most other trains would, due to each car having a dedicated TO cab and dedicated condcutor cab.

Regarding your reference to F and M trains - every station platform is marked with indexcards thatnprompt the TO on where to stop based on the lenght of train so that the conductor would be in the center of the platform. F trains are 10 caers, M trains 8.

The intended point of referring to the C line is that with current service consisting of both R-4's and R-32's is this: when a R-44 stops at a left side platform, the conductor will be in the front of the 5th car of 8, just rearward of the center of the train which is between cars. But on an R-32, the conducotr will be at the rear of the 5th car of 10, just forward of center, which might make a difference in the context of whether it matters which of the 2 middle cars the conductor will be in to see the board and monitors right at a station stop.

Robert Paniagua
Posts: 4434
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:11 am
Location: Weymouth, MA 02188

MBTA Comparison

Post by Robert Paniagua » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:47 pm

As a comparison to the 10 second C/R resetting things which we're discussing here, things in Boston are different. On the Red and Orange lines, the train attendant (oka the C/R) opens the door on 6-cars trains, from the fifth car on that train upon berthing at a terminal station and waits for all passengers to off-load. Then the train attendant shuts the door and makes a caution announcements saying, "the doors will open and close momentarily" and then closes the doors and turns off the door control switch and goes down to the second car cab facing the end of the line (which becomes the fifth car in the inbound direction and turns on the door control switch, then reopens the doors.
~Robert Paniagua
Moderator: WMATA :: General Railroad Operations

Patrick Boylan
Posts: 3469
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:44 pm
Location: Here is a stupid picture, pay attention to me. Burlington Township, NJ 08016

Re: The frustrating 10 second pause

Post by Patrick Boylan » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:19 am

For what it's worth, I remember a Long Island RR train at Penn Station, or is it the Long Island RR station, that apparently didn't pull in far enough.
The doors were open and passengers had already started getting on, the conductor repeated an announcement for what seemed like several minutes "please stop boarding this train, the doors will close, the train will move forward a few feet, then the doors will open again".

I couldn't tell if people were actually boarding all that time, and so making it difficult to close the doors, but I can't imagine how a crowd dribbling in several minutes before train time could have been any harder to close doors on than the stragglers who would have been left behind if the crew had to close doors at normal departure time.
But that may be a reason why the subway has deemed it impractical to open doors immediately, similar to what Trainmaster5 mentioned, they may think it might add to passengers getting caught in closing doors.

I still can't figure what advantage we get from designing the door system so that doors must close when switching from one door control position to another. Don't the trains already have devices that are supposed to keep the train from moving if a door's open? If I remember correctly Atlanta's subway has buttons on each side that say 'open this side, open other side, close this side, start train', and I have seen the single operator pull into a station, press the 'open other side' button, then walk over to the other side to check the platform, then press the 'close this side' and 'start train' buttons, then walk back to the other side of the cab and sit down while the train was accelerating out of the station. I can't remember if they did the same thing at the terminal, in other words does Atlanta's subway have the same 10 second pause as you mention here for New York.

Also for what it's worth Philadelphia's subways seem to follow the same 10 second pause, except it always seems to me to be more like 30 seconds. However a mitigating factor is that the Market St line has always had a loop at one terminal, and the other major subway line, Broad St, has changed one terminal from stub end to a loop, so crews don't have to cross over all the time.

Trainmaster5
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:26 pm

Re: The frustrating 10 second pause

Post by Trainmaster5 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:58 pm

Having seen subway riders up close and personal every working day for the last quarter century I'd agree that the Massachusetts way would be the best way to go. The problem is that too many New Yorkers are in so much of a hurry that they would never give the alighting riders a chance to leave the train before they attempted to board. If all conductors and train operators followed the rules on terminal operation, as written, the trains would be delayed even more at terminals such as Flatbush Ave , Brooklyn on the IRT. Even the local supervision would be up in arms if a crew actually followed the book.

HBLR
Posts: 1035
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:22 am
Location: Bayonne, NJ

Re: The frustrating 10 second pause

Post by HBLR » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:21 am

It is an everyday fact of life for path conductors to change cars en-route, but then again, they operate from the rear end of the front car and the front end of the 2nd car, and there are no cabs at those positions, so the transition is much faster and more smooth.

I would say the way the subway is constructed vs path, it's good the conductor is in the middle, those trains are way longer on weird shaped platforms, path is mostly straight, with some gentle curves here and there.

As for the pause, get on the train before it, if it's so important to be on time?
No I'm not a railroad professional, but that doesn't mean I can't provide first hand observational comments.

keithsy
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:54 pm
Location: unfortunately New York

Re: The frustrating 10 second pause

Post by keithsy » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:19 pm

Once again another such subject, dear to my heart: Firstly, let's stop calling these people customers. They are passengers or riders. They are not buying anything except the right (a MetroCard) to ride. They are paying a fare. This is the reason why this agency is the hometown laughing-stock. In the old days, the c/r did not go through this stupidity. It is shame how these men and women are just put through these uneeded paces. On the R10-38's, drum switches established position. On the R40's and beyond, door control buttons and the master key did the same. Then, an alleged defective chip changed the whole thing of operating position. The defective chip caused doors on the R62's to either open when the train was in motion or when the key was turned in the door control panel. When the chip was changed, along with the key, we got this useless added task. If I had a say in things, I would revert to the older simpler practices, where the conductor would be allowed to use his/her own better judgement. This current practice is stupid. I agree: let the next conductor set up his/her own position. There has to be a better way to operate than this. Also, in the old days, there were no cameras on the platforms. Everyone did the best that they could. Also, solo operation: Either, have a conductor or let the motorman use best judgement.Life could be easy.

TRAINMASTER5: In the old days, there were real men who would not put up with this garbage and they would slow things down until management got the message. It was called a "rule book slowdown."

HBLR: I agree. I used to go from Brooklyn to Manhattan 30 minutes in the 60's and 70's. Since all the social tinkering and then the accident on the Williamsburg Bridge, which has slowed things even more, I must now leave my home 90-120 minutes earlier.

Robert Paniagua: So I see Boston has followed our rotten path. I rode the Red and Orange Lines in 2009 and I was shocked to see the condition of the equipment. This is the not the MBTA that I once knew.

Head-end View: The TA overdoes safety like a burned chicken. Passengers do not take any responsibility for their dangerous, stupid and imprudent actions. Just like society, Transit caters to them like a social service agency. The old South Ferry station served quite well. It should have been place on the Historical Register. As for delays in opening doors, here is why: Since 1990, announcements take precedence over EVERYTHING ELSE. Mr. Diekmann did not care about operation safety, meaning doors opening on the palatform side, not the "off" side. This is the reason why there were so many such incidents of the latter. Plus, Mr. Forde went to Japan and saw conductors pointing to the indicator board and he thought it to be a novel idea. So, that adds to the further diminishment of time and always, do not forget those clear, crisp announcements of station stops, transfers available and above all what train it is and where it is going.

flexliner
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:01 am

Re: The frustrating 10 second pause

Post by flexliner » Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:39 am

regarding the OP - was he referring to the new SF or the loop?
on the loop platform there are gap fillers and those certainly took several seconds to be locked into place before doors could open
if he is referring to new straight platform then maybe the other posts are correct, though depending on which track arrival is there may not be need to change sides for first uptown station (Rector St)

hi55us
Posts: 2341
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Manhattan

Re: The frustrating 10 second pause

Post by hi55us » Sat May 07, 2011 10:07 am

flexliner wrote:regarding the OP - was he referring to the new SF or the loop?
on the loop platform there are gap fillers and those certainly took several seconds to be locked into place before doors could open
if he is referring to new straight platform then maybe the other posts are correct, though depending on which track arrival is there may not be need to change sides for first uptown station (Rector St)
I meant the new station, as well as many other terminals do this practice (the E at World Trade comes to mind)

Shalom
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:53 am

Re: The frustrating 10 second pause

Post by Shalom » Tue May 10, 2011 11:06 pm

keithsy wrote: Mr. Forde went to Japan and saw conductors pointing to the indicator board and he thought it to be a novel idea.
I wonder which finger the C/R's point to the board with...?

rjbrody
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:33 am

Re: The frustrating 10 second pause

Post by rjbrody » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:57 am

Using a finger other than the index is not unknown.
I remember a rule or notice that came out in the 90s that changed the procedure for conductors arriving at a terminal in the B Division. C/Rs went to open the doors from their operating position, make their required announcements...yadda yadda... "Stand clear of the closing doors", close the doors, dezone, then key themselves off the train. The departing conductor would then key him/herself on to the key and establish an operating position for travel in the opposite direction. Needless to say, but this caused massive delays and confusion and custo... err, passenger, injuries when they rushed the closing doors thinking the train was leaving.

R30A
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:28 pm

Re: The frustrating 10 second pause

Post by R30A » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:37 pm

The conductor boards are generally in excess of 6 feet long. The only thing forcing conductors to change position is policy. I know at least historically, If there is a problem with the conductors position, they will often use the other middle cab.

Return to “NYC MTA Subway and Rail, PATH and SIRT”