Dyre Avenue - former NYWB in the Bronx

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JOEC
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Dyre Avenue - former NYWB in the Bronx

Post by JOEC »

i am so far behind the times i woke up today, found out richard nixon is not the president, i won't be drafted for the military, i should shed the bell bottoms, get a haircut, my 1974 plymouth 'cuda i bought new, is now a collectible car. this is my wife's computer and now in 2010, i'm learning how to use it. i grew up near dyre ave and made it my choice for subway use. i replied a few weeks back in the nywb site that when the city of new york took over operations in the bronx that the original entrance to dyre ave station was under the trestle and was closed for subway use and a new entrance was made on the dyre ave side. the stairs to the former southbound side were removed and the entrance to the platform sealed. my family used the original northbound stairs and platform for shuttle service and when through service began in 1957. i recall around 1961 or 1962, a high wind blew off the roof to the old northbound platform which was the only track in service at that time and shortly there after the nycta did a complete rebuilding of the dyre ave station with an island platform on what was the nywb track no.2[northbound express track], the former nywb track no.4[northbound local], as the only track in service until 1971 when the second track was added on what was the nywb track no.1 [southbound express].under the trestle where the original entrance was located are 2 nywb logos.as of june 2009 is the original and still functioning,us&s annuctiator with light bulbs and bell alerting the approach of trains. i remember the sinclair service station on 233st and provost ave [the owner lived a few houses from me on hill ave], the dairy store on 233st and mulvey ave and much else i can remember. i would like to communicate more with other former bronxites. joec aka pbass

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Re: dyre ave

Post by Jeff Smith »

Joe,

I've enjoyed reading some of your posts, particularly your sharing your recollections with Noel. I thought I'd share these links with you of the end of the Dyre Av line per the street view of Google Maps:

Underneath 233rd St. Trestle

233rd St. Trestle

Imperial "Milk"

Obviously, they don't bottle milk there anymore. Shame. We always stopped there for freshly bottled milk coming home from my grandmother's home (E224th St and Carpenter Av). This was back in the late 60's. Imperial had some local stores in Westchester, too, I remember one in Larchmont as late as the late 80's. Wonder when they went out?

The Sinclair Station was still there, then, too. We used to get gas there (when gas had lead), "put a dino in your tank".

Old Sinclair Station

Dyre Av Overpass

Dyre Av Underpass

I never actually caught the 5 from here; I used to catch it around 1991 from Pelham Parkway. The annunciater/bell/light was still working at that time.

When you go to satellite view, the tracks extend enough to accomodate an 8 or 10-car train on each track past 233rd. The ROW is still fairly vacant to 3rd St and Columbus (except for a junk yard). I think the Westchester had a station at Kingsbridge; not sure about 3rd, but both seems awfully close to Dyre. Although I'm not sure why, but it looks like you could easily still extend it there. I guess this is where Mt. Vernon Junction was?

I don't know, it just seems like the 5 could be so much more (as it once was, of course). Wonder why they have never considered extending either the 5 or 2 into Mt. Vernon.
Next stop, Willoughby
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Noel Weaver
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Re: dyre ave

Post by Noel Weaver »

Actually all of these stations were very close together. I once walked from the Dyre Avenue Station to the New Haven
Station at Mount Vernon and it wasn't a big deal.
Here is the milage from Harlem River according to a NYW&B employee timetable:
Dyre Avenue 8.33
Kingsbridge Road 8.63
East 6th Street 9.24
East 3rd Street 9.79
New York City only saved the portion within the city limits thus the end of active trackage at Dyre Avenue.
As you probably know, East 3rd Street, Mount Vernon was a major transfer station between express and local trains and
trains to New Rochelle/Port Chester and trains to White Plains.
Classic example of a line that should never have been built but once built it should never have been shut down and torn up
either.
Noel Weaver

JOEC
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Re: dyre ave

Post by JOEC »

to sarge and all others: thank you for reading my posts and not taking issue with them. as i've said i am so far behind the times that many posts date back quite some time and now i'm catching up on them. my family calls me "rainman" after the character portrayed in the movie by dustin hoffman because i have an excellent memory for such trivia. i should have had this good a memory for school work.i recall the wakefield section of the bronx very well.

Trainmaster5
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Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:26 pm

Re: dyre ave

Post by Trainmaster5 »

Sarge wrote:Joe,

I've enjoyed reading some of your posts, particularly your sharing your recollections with Noel. I thought I'd share these links with you of the end of the Dyre Av line per the street view of Google Maps:

Underneath 233rd St. Trestle

233rd St. Trestle

Imperial "Milk"

Obviously, they don't bottle milk there anymore. Shame. We always stopped there for freshly bottled milk coming home from my grandmother's home (E224th St and Carpenter Av). This was back in the late 60's. Imperial had some local stores in Westchester, too, I remember one in Larchmont as late as the late 80's. Wonder when they went out?

The Sinclair Station was still there, then, too. We used to get gas there (when gas had lead), "put a dino in your tank".

Old Sinclair Station

Dyre Av Overpass

Dyre Av Underpass

I never actually caught the 5 from here; I used to catch it around 1991 from Pelham Parkway. The annunciater/bell/light was still working at that time.

When you go to satellite view, the tracks extend enough to accomodate an 8 or 10-car train on each track past 233rd. The ROW is still fairly vacant to 3rd St and Columbus (except for a junk yard). I think the Westchester had a station at Kingsbridge; not sure about 3rd, but both seems awfully close to Dyre. Although I'm not sure why, but it looks like you could easily still extend it there. I guess this is where Mt. Vernon Junction was?

I don't know, it just seems like the 5 could be so much more (as it once was, of course). Wonder why they have never considered extending either the 5 or 2 into Mt. Vernon.
We can lay-up a 10 car train on each of the tracks north of the station. The remnants of the 3rd St station are a short walk from the present Dyre Avenue station.

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Otto Vondrak
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Re: dyre ave

Post by Otto Vondrak »

Trainmaster5 wrote:We can lay-up a 10 car train on each of the tracks north of the station. The remnants of the 3rd St station are a short walk from the present Dyre Avenue station.
If you were walking north from Dyre Avenue, you'd hit the remains of Kingsbridge Road first, then the site of East 6th Street, then the derelict East 3rd Street.

http://nywbry.com/systemmap.php

-otto-
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Trainmaster5
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Re: dyre ave

Post by Trainmaster5 »

Otto Vondrak wrote:
Trainmaster5 wrote:We can lay-up a 10 car train on each of the tracks north of the station. The remnants of the 3rd St station are a short walk from the present Dyre Avenue station.
If you were walking north from Dyre Avenue, you'd hit the remains of Kingsbridge Road first, then the site of East 6th Street, then the derelict East 3rd Street.

http://nywbry.com/systemmap.php

-otto-
Entirely correct, Otto. I should have pointed out that we drove north to East 3rd St and walked back to Dyre Ave while my classmate pointed out the remnants. His parents actually rode the service back in the day and his father was our tour guide that day. This was back in the early '80s and I haven't been up there since the Dyre Ave line got the new R142 equipment.

Trainmaster5
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Re: dyre ave

Post by Trainmaster5 »

Sarge wrote:Joe,

I've enjoyed reading some of your posts, particularly your sharing your recollections with Noel. I thought I'd share these links with you of the end of the Dyre Av line per the street view of Google Maps:

Underneath 233rd St. Trestle

233rd St. Trestle

Imperial "Milk"

Obviously, they don't bottle milk there anymore. Shame. We always stopped there for freshly bottled milk coming home from my grandmother's home (E224th St and Carpenter Av). This was back in the late 60's. Imperial had some local stores in Westchester, too, I remember one in Larchmont as late as the late 80's. Wonder when they went out?

The Sinclair Station was still there, then, too. We used to get gas there (when gas had lead), "put a dino in your tank".

Old Sinclair Station

Dyre Av Overpass

Dyre Av Underpass

I never actually caught the 5 from here; I used to catch it around 1991 from Pelham Parkway. The annunciater/bell/light was still working at that time.

When you go to satellite view, the tracks extend enough to accomodate an 8 or 10-car train on each track past 233rd. The ROW is still fairly vacant to 3rd St and Columbus (except for a junk yard). I think the Westchester had a station at Kingsbridge; not sure about 3rd, but both seems awfully close to Dyre. Although I'm not sure why, but it looks like you could easily still extend it there. I guess this is where Mt. Vernon Junction was?

I don't know, it just seems like the 5 could be so much more (as it once was, of course). Wonder why they have never considered extending either the 5 or 2 into Mt. Vernon.
When I started with NYCTA back in the early '80s I asked the same question. The answer had something to do with the law and NYCTA crossing county lines. For some reason NYCTA wasn't allowed to cross county lines which made no sense because by that time NYCTA was under the MTA. Now NYCT buses run into Nassau County at the Green Acres Mall. Also all connections with the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch were severed where possible at the New Lots Ave- Canarsie line station and the ramp in the Bronx from the old NYWB railroad station at East 180th St which ran down to the tracks of( Conrail)? I think the only active connection is at the Linden Shop in Brooklyn.

Jeff Smith
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Re: Dyre Avenue - former NYWB in the Bronx

Post by Jeff Smith »

I guess it could happen now, but no one is going to build el's anymore. And there's very little left of the ROW up the 3rd/Columbus. As far as the distances, with a rapid transit system that stops every six blocks (and the NYW&B wasn't that much of a local, although it had more intermediate stops than the NH), I guess that wouldn't be too much of a concern. Would it be useful to extend up to Kingsbridge or 3rd Av? I'm not sure. If they ever connect the 2nd Av subway, maybe.
Next stop, Willoughby
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Re: Dyre Avenue - former NYWB in the Bronx

Post by MNR's #1 Conductor »

There is a book which has great coverage of the old NYW&B, up to after NYCT took over the NYW&B between E.180th Street and Dyre Avenue, called "Forgotten Railroads Through Westchester County", written by Robert A. Bang, railroad.net's own Otto Vondrak, and 2 MNR guys well knowledgeable, George W. Kowanski and John E. Frank. Very good book!!! Otto can best inform you here as to where anyone interested in this book can find it!! :-)
Railroading is not a career, it's a lifestyle! Railroading........what other life would I wanna live? :-)

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Re: Dyre Avenue - former NYWB in the Bronx

Post by Jeff Smith »

I also wanted to talk about the rules regarding NYCT service outside of NYC. Those rules date to a long time ago when these lines were privately operated. I think if you go to the station stops web-site (the exact URL I'm not sure of) you'll see some posts regarding this. It's one of the reasons the NH line still only has one stop in the Bronx (that, and CDOT insistence, I think).
Next stop, Willoughby
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Forest Glen
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Re: Dyre Avenue - former NYWB in the Bronx

Post by Forest Glen »

This is a very scenic albeit underutilized stretch of track.

keyboardkat
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Re: Dyre Avenue - former NYWB in the Bronx

Post by keyboardkat »

Perhaps someone can answer this question:

Recently I was in the area of Pelham Parkway and Esplanade. I know that the Esplanade is the former right of way of the NYW&B. I was surprised to find that the subway is underground, and the Esplanade is divided by a wide park-like mall.

I had always assumed that the subway simply took over the right of way of the NYW&B and, with suitable changes in signalling, installation of third rail power and construction of additional stations, simply ran their trains on it.

Was the NYW&B a surface operation on the Esplanade where the green mall is now, and the NYCTA decided to convert to an underground operation? Or did the NYW&B have a subway tunnel here? And where can one see subway trains running on former NYW&B above-ground right of way?
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Noel Weaver
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Re: Dyre Avenue - former NYWB in the Bronx

Post by Noel Weaver »

The subway line uses the exact same R O W of the Westchester at this location. The Westchester was underground, they
considered it a tunnel.
Noel Weaver

Trainmaster5
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Re: Dyre Avenue - former NYWB in the Bronx

Post by Trainmaster5 »

keyboardkat wrote:Perhaps someone can answer this question:

Recently I was in the area of Pelham Parkway and Esplanade. I know that the Esplanade is the former right of way of the NYW&B. I was surprised to find that the subway is underground, and the Esplanade is divided by a wide park-like mall.

I had always assumed that the subway simply took over the right of way of the NYW&B and, with suitable changes in signalling, installation of third rail power and construction of additional stations, simply ran their trains on it.

Was the NYW&B a surface operation on the Esplanade where the green mall is now, and the NYCTA decided to convert to an underground operation? Or did the NYW&B have a subway tunnel here? And where can one see subway trains running on former NYW&B above-ground right of way?
As Noel pointed out the Dyre Avenue line uses the exact ROW of the railroad. No stations were added to the line although the Dyre Avenue station was modified to make it a two track terminal with an island platform installed where it was once a local station with two side platforms. The present platform sits where the n/b express tracks were located. The station entrance at Dyre Avenue was modified by the NYCTA but from street level at Dyre Avenue you can make out the original station's layout and from the platform it's very easy to see how the station was laid out.

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