Advocates want to Connect/Incorporate the PATH with 6 trai

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

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lostsoul
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Location: somewhere in nj

Advocates want to Connect/Incorporate the PATH with 6 trai

Post by lostsoul » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:13 pm

he Bayonne Bridge will either be replaced or fall into the water sometime in the next 20 years. (also, the bridge is too low for many modern ships).

The NYC2030 plan already calls for the restoration of service to the North Shore Line.

The currently under construction ARC tunnel will not relieve the trans-Hudson congestion in the long term; much of that capacity is spoken for with long term NJ Transit expansion, such as the aforementioned service to Scranton, as well as another line into Middlesex County and service restoration to West Trenton and service restoration to Easton, Pennsylvania.

On a twenty to thirty year time frame, Jersey City has some 15,000+ planned housing units, and Harrison has several thousand more. Should Newark ever experience an urban renaissance, that too will add commuters to both the NE Corridor and to the PATH. And of course the area around Journal Square, should redevelopment prove fruitful, has the potential add thousands of high density residences.

In addition, the northern expansion of the HBLR will deposit many commuters at PATH stations; commuters diverted away from Hoboken when ARC opens will likely be replaced by HBLR riders.

Compounding this is the finite amount of land currently connected to the city subway system. The region is still growing, and growing rapidly. Gentrified neighborhoods are pushing workforce labor further from the city core. There will need to be more housing available overall and more variety of housing in terms of cost.

The short point is: the capacity demand will be there for a third subway tunnel between Hudson County and Manhattan, which is not being addressed by connecting the PATH to the 6 train.

The current cost of the Second Avenue subway is estimated at around $17B for 8.5 miles. No doubt connecting Hanover Square to Staten, about 10 miles, would have a base price starting at $20B+ but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Modern cities around the world are building entire new subway systems all of the time. Certainly much of that money would need to come from the federal government-- but a project with 4 Senators backing it has a better shot of receiving funding than a single state with only 2 (Ironically, it would cover fewer house Districts, NJ13, NY13, and NY8).

Tom V
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Re: Advocates want to Connect/Incorporate the PATH with 6 trai

Post by Tom V » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:48 am

If you want to connect the NYC Subway system to NJ the best way (IMO) would be to bring the L train straight across the Hudson to Hoboken Terminal. As for Staten Island they should convert the SIRR to Light Rail and connect the current line and the abandoned North Shore line with the HBLRT via a new Bayonne bridge, it would be nice to also build a West Shore line from Mariner's Harbor down 440 to the College of Staten Island, Staten Island Mall.

JCGUY
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Re: Advocates want to Connect/Incorporate the PATH with 6 trai

Post by JCGUY » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:45 pm

Agreed on the L, but I'd route it to the center or the north side of Hoboken, which really are not at a useful distance from the current Hoboken PATH station, and then ideally the line would continue on to Robert Byrd Station in Secaucus. Realistically, there is as good a chance of this occurring than there is of extending the LIRR to the CHannle Tunnel and thereby allowing rail service between Ronkonkoma and Brussels.

CLamb
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Location: Scotch Plains, NJ

compatibility

Post by CLamb » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:53 am

What is the compatibility between the two systems? Are the signalling, power, and clearances compatible or will it require extensive work?

bleet
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Re: Advocates want to Connect/Incorporate the PATH with 6 trai

Post by bleet » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:04 pm

In the aftermath of 9/11, NJARP suggested connecting the PATH to the Lexington Ave subway line. http://www.nj-arp.org/path_lex.html

I believe it was at least looked at by the powers that be at the time but of course instead of a relatively cheap and elegant solution we're building two different, unconnected and expensive terminals in lower Manhattan and a separate tunnel and terminal in midtown and still New Jersey residents have no connection to the east side of Manhattan.

Terry Kennedy
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Re: compatibility

Post by Terry Kennedy » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:28 am

CLamb wrote:What is the compatibility between the two systems? Are the signalling, power, and clearances compatible or will it require extensive work?
I discussed this at some length in an earlier post here.

fishmech
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Re: Advocates want to Connect/Incorporate the PATH with 6 trai

Post by fishmech » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:28 pm

The biggest problem is that the PATH is technically an FRA-regulated railroad, with some waivers, and the NYC Subway isn't, right?

M&Eman
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Re: Advocates want to Connect/Incorporate the PATH with 6 trai

Post by M&Eman » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:06 pm

fishmech wrote:The biggest problem is that the PATH is technically an FRA-regulated railroad, with some waivers, and the NYC Subway isn't, right?
It is techincally, but there are no longer any sections of track regularly used by freight trains or full-blown FRA passenger rail since the PRR Jersey City line was given to PATH for its exclusive use. It would not be super hard for PATH to be formally "abandoned" and then the right-of-way "reused" for urban heavy rail.
"The Erie only sells 1 way tickets on the NJ&NY because it only has a 99 year lease on the line."

Kamen Rider
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Re: Advocates want to Connect/Incorporate the PATH with 6 trai

Post by Kamen Rider » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:36 am

FRA classificaion does have it's upsides, they don't need to have thier ROWS seperate if they extend the system along a pre existing main line route.
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drewh
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Re: Advocates want to Connect/Incorporate the PATH with 6 trai

Post by drewh » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:41 pm

Extending the L train to Hoboken doesn't really accomplish much except a one-seat ride to Brooklyn. PATH already takes you to 14th St just as the L would. However extending the 7 train would give you direct access to 42nd Street, Times Square, Grand Central, and presumably the Javits Centre, as well as Citi Field. Shame we are building a new $8 billion+ tunnel and its only for use by NJT commuter trains when it could have been 2 levels like the 63rd St tunnel is designed for both the LIRR and the subway.

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