What if H&M ran to GCT?

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CarterB
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Erie plans to use H&M to enter Manhattan

Post by CarterB » Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:21 pm

According to http://world.nycsubway.org/us/path/hmhistory.html
"The Downtown Tunnels The downtown river tunnels, on the other hand, came no closer than 90 feet and at the state line are 240 feet apart. They were built through mud and rock at a depth of 60 to 90 feet below mean low water level, and were 15 feet, 3 inches in diameter, lying 15 to 40 feet below the bottom of the river. Part way under the river sections of tube were placed under the westbound tunnel to permit the proposed third and fourth "Erie" tracks to diverge from the route to Exchange Place; the headings for these additional tunnels may still be seen between the existing tunnels just outside Hudson Terminal." "Two additional tubes were started at Hudson Terminal to provide express service direct to the Erie Station. However, because of a lack of funds they were never completed. In another proposal, the Erie Railroad wanted a spur built from the existing tunnel near the H&M Station under Pavonia Avenue to a new station directly under the Erie Terminal.

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Terry Kennedy
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Re: Erie plans to use H&M to enter Manhattan

Post by Terry Kennedy » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:05 pm

CarterB wrote: to permit the proposed third and fourth "Erie" tracks to diverge from the route to Exchange Place; the headings for these additional tunnels may still be seen between the existing tunnels just outside Hudson Terminal." "Two additional tubes were started at Hudson Terminal to provide express service direct to the Erie Station.
True, but that was for H&M service on H&M tracks with H&M cars. The Erie didn't want their passengers from Hudson Terminal going past the Pennsylvania Exchange Place terminal on their way to the H&M Erie (now Pavonia/Newport) station.

The thing to remember is that there were dozens of alignments filed with the state, almost none of which were built (though you can see provisions for them). Some examples are a diverging route to the CRR at the west end of Grove St. Westbound there's a signal hut in the alignment now. Eastbound there's a plywood wall. There was also a provision for a 3rd route where the tracks to/from Christopher St. split in NJ, south to Pavonia/Newport and north to Hoboken. The 3rd route was straight west to Newark. Again, you can see signs of this, but there's power equipment blocking the route. None of these go more than 50 feet, and most a lot less.

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Otto Vondrak
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Re: What if H&M ran to GCT?

Post by Otto Vondrak » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:40 am

Terry, thanks for sharing!
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Terry Kennedy
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Re: What if H&M ran to GCT?

Post by Terry Kennedy » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:19 am

Otto Vondrak wrote:Terry, thanks for sharing!
No problem at all! The last time I had any of this out for the public to see was at the Hoboken Historical Museum show, which ran from January through April of 2003. And that was just a small subset of materials due to the exhibit space's size, which excluded all of the "what if" plans for upgrading / extending the system, like 4-track throughout, and far more construction details than were shown (we had the1882 drawing Burr refers to in his book out on display - all 40 feet or so of it; a 50-foot blueprint for the downtown service from Exchange Place to Hudson Terminal (showing the locations for the H&M Erie tunnels discssed earlier). Also omitted were all of the alternate route filings (with maps), etc. I really should stitch what pictures I have of the exhibit into a panarama and let people click on it to see pop-up balloons pointing them to more info. Here is a link to some of what made it, and some that didn't,

CarterB
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Re: What if H&M ran to GCT?

Post by CarterB » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:18 am

Terry, Great info!!
On the blueprints, there seems to be a twin tunnel shown going from Erie Pavonia terminal across the Hudson. Was that a separate plan by the Erie?
Also the 2/22/08 Scientific American seems to show the completion? of the line/s down to CNJ Communipaw?
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Terry Kennedy
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Re: What if H&M ran to GCT?

Post by Terry Kennedy » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:56 pm

CarterB wrote:Terry, Great info!!
Thanks!
On the blueprints, there seems to be a twin tunnel shown going from Erie Pavonia terminal across the Hudson. Was that a separate plan by the Erie?
Which blueprints? The H&M's proposed tunnels from Hudson Terminal to the Erie would have left Hudson Terminal next to the existing ones, and proceeded northwest diagonally across the river to a new Erie station and then joined up with the tunnels where the tracks go either to 33rd or to Hoboken, as shown in this drawing:

Image

More here.

Those tunnel stubs are there, but have signal huts and power equipment in them.
Also the 2/22/08 Scientific American seems to show the completion? of the line/s down to CNJ Communipaw?
The H&M never made it there. There is a ring segment in the weeds near the terminal, but it didn't get there as part of any tunnel. I'd be interested to see a photo / scan of that article.

TREnecNYP

Re: What if H&M ran to GCT?

Post by TREnecNYP » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:06 pm

Completed system. Ugh, my railfan brain aches at the idea of a huge expanded H&M...... I think if they had expanded all the way, it would still be H&M.... *droools over jucy artifact morsels* :P

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nyrmetros
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Re: What if H&M ran to GCT?

Post by nyrmetros » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:31 am

Terry Kennedy wrote:
CarterB wrote:Terry, Great info!!

Image
Could someone explain what's happening here to me? so much going on!

OportRailfan
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Re: What if H&M ran to GCT?

Post by OportRailfan » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:31 am

The caisson's are actually built in the way that the upper 2 of the 3 shown in the picture( caisson #1 and #2 are). The bottom showed a proposed idea I think, that had an extra set of tracks on each level of caisson #3. Terry can probably explain it better.

Anyway, its just the blueprint to all the caisson interlockings and how trains get to where they need to go in PATH.
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amtrakowitz
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Re: What if H&M ran to GCT?

Post by amtrakowitz » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:22 pm

hrfcarl wrote:Reading about the Hudson & Manhattan on Wikipedia, there was mention of plans to tunnel up to GCT. I was wonder what would have happened if the uptown tunnel had been built to GCT instead of 33rd Street ...?
One may as well ask "what if" that extension was built as well as the planned extension to the Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal. Nice to have had a connecting rail service where one could have gotten from the Ontarian at GCT to the Royal Blue in Jersey City, perhaps, especially if it outran the bus from GCT to Jersey City.

keyboardkat
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Re: What if H&M ran to GCT?

Post by keyboardkat » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:16 pm

I remember when the PRR listed H&M departure times from Hudson Terminal in their system timetables, including long distance schedules. Passengers from downtown points could take the H&M train to Newark Penn, and transfer there to their PRR trains to wherever. Sort of like the LIRR listing Hunterspoint Avenue departure times in its Babylon timetable.
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Otto Vondrak
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Re: What if H&M ran to GCT?

Post by Otto Vondrak » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:27 pm

Joint PRR/H&M timetable in PRR format, 1942:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ottomatic77/5142742395/

-otto-
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