R Train to Staten Island

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

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SystemsConsciousness

R Train to Staten Island

Post by SystemsConsciousness » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:58 pm

Congressman Nadler has been a big proponent of a freight tunnel to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. It was decided that the best route would be from New Jersey rather than Staten Island, but what this idea:(?)

A two story tunnel from the end of the R train at Bay Ridge to Staten Island to connect the R train with the Staten Island Rapid Transit (SIRT) so that commuters in Staten Island could the subway to Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens (and change for) the Bronx?

Then the freight tunnel could provide goods into NYC and garbage out of NYC all with rail efficiency, while sharing the cost of extending the subway to Staten Island, which would increase property values (and taxes), while reducing costs and road congestion.

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Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by Jeff Smith » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:10 am

I vote for an escalator to the moon :wink: .........where is the money coming from? Grand plans, if your playing SimCity or Train Magnate or something on your Mac. The funding just isn't there for all of the (more) needed projects such as TZB replacement, THE from NJ to a "new" Penn, etc.

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RearOfSignal
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Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by RearOfSignal » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:38 am

Uh oh, the railroad/subway fantasy expansion virus is going around again.
Hurry up and wait at the signal!

SystemsConsciousness

Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by SystemsConsciousness » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:48 am

Sarge wrote:I vote for an escalator to the moon :wink: .........where is the money coming from? Grand plans, if your playing SimCity or Train Magnate or something on your Mac. The funding just isn't there for all of the (more) needed projects such as TZB replacement, THE from NJ to a "new" Penn, etc.

Read my motto:
Bonds based on property tax increases in Staten Island from having direct subway service and the sharp reduction in cost for garbage removal from Brooklyn and Queens as this is presently done with barges.

This project more than pays for itself because it is joined between subway and freight. Up until now these have been thought of as separate projects.

sC

RearOfSignal
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Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by RearOfSignal » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:47 am

All the garbage in the city won't pay for a new tunnel connecting Staten Island. The city won't save billions in rail garbage removal and property tax increases as a result of freight/passengers tunnels.
Hurry up and wait at the signal!

SystemsConsciousness

Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by SystemsConsciousness » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:51 am

RearOfSignal wrote:All the garbage in the city won't pay for a new tunnel connecting Staten Island. The city won't save billions in rail garbage removal and property tax increases as a result of freight/passengers tunnels.
The benefit of goods traveling by rail instead of truck also need to be included (economic and environmental). There are political benefits of uniting all five boroughs via the subway and economic benefits of people having to spend less time commuting to the other boroughs.

RearOfSignal
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Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by RearOfSignal » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:06 am

SystemsConsciousness wrote:
RearOfSignal wrote:All the garbage in the city won't pay for a new tunnel connecting Staten Island. The city won't save billions in rail garbage removal and property tax increases as a result of freight/passengers tunnels.
The benefit of goods traveling by rail instead of truck also need to be included (economic and environmental). There are political benefits of uniting all five boroughs via the subway and economic benefits of people having to spend less time commuting to the other boroughs.
The cost of such a venture, would be unreasonable. In fact many of the people who commute from Staten Island into Manhattan do take the subway. They travel on the Staten Island Ferry to The Battery, take the 1 from South Ferry, or 4, 5 from Bowling Green into the city.

FYI, garbage removal by rail already exists. CSX runs garbage trains from Oak Point to Selkirk, NY. Trust me I've smelled them rolling by.
Hurry up and wait at the signal!

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Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by Jeff Smith » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:57 am

SystemsConsciousness wrote:Bonds based on property tax increases in Staten Island from having direct subway service and the sharp reduction in cost for garbage removal from Brooklyn and Queens as this is presently done with barges.

This project more than pays for itself because it is joined between subway and freight. Up until now these have been thought of as separate projects.

sC
If the project pays for itself, why do you need property tax increases? Staten Islanders have already threatened secession from NYC claiming they are under-served and over-taxed. Be realistic. I want rail service expanded, too, but this isn't a Microprose Trains game you're playing here.
Next stop, Willoughby
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Gerry6309
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Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by Gerry6309 » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:10 pm

Extending the R to Staten Island would make for a longer trip than the SIRT - ferry combo. The run from 95th to Whitehall takes 31 minutes, the tunnel would add 5, while the ferry takes 20 minutes at most. What would be gained?
Gerry. STM/BSRA

The next stop is Washington. Change for Forest Hills Trains on the Winter St. Platform, and Everett Trains on the Summer St. Platform. This is an Ashmont train, change for Braintree at Columbia.

SystemsConsciousness

Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by SystemsConsciousness » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:52 pm

Gerry6309 wrote:Extending the R to Staten Island would make for a longer trip than the SIRT - ferry combo. The run from 95th to Whitehall takes 31 minutes, the tunnel would add 5, while the ferry takes 20 minutes at most. What would be gained?
Single seat to Manhattan, ability to go to Brooklyn directly. All of this would increase the density of SI.

pennsy
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Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by pennsy » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:05 pm

Imagine that by now that subject has been bandied around for about 40 years, at least. There was even talk of using the Verrazano bridge for getting the SIRT cars into Brooklyn. All never happened. The ferry from Brooklyn to Staten Island is still a favorite end point for commencement celebrations for High School and College students. I remember that well.

mhig9000

Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by mhig9000 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:01 pm

I think the OP does not fully understand the inner workings of huge political entities like the MTA. Politicians and appointed officials look to get done as much as they can in the frequently brief time they are in power. Generally, the will pick projects that have as much existing public support as possible, or ones that have private supporters ready to lend full support in some capacity, or especially ones that can be done quickly and cheaply. Likewise, they tend to shy away from massive projects that don't have much of an existing political profile, or that will take so long to complete they will be well out of office when they are finally completed. This project fits both of these criteria.

Simply saying that something makes sense, or will work out in the long run is never even close to enough for something to get serious political consideration, In fact these issues are usually considered after a project has attained significant support and is close to getting funding.

The long run argument is generally very ineffective because they climate in the country these days in both business and politics is to seek out the projects which will return the most investment the soonest. The benefits you give as examples would take decades to fully materialize.

If you want to see these projects happen, the best thing to do is to convince the people who would benefit from this service to want it and to let their political leaders know, arguing its merits with those who already recognize the realities of the situation just serves to instigate.

SystemsConsciousness

Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by SystemsConsciousness » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:16 pm

I agree with you about the politics. Jerry Nadler has been pushing his freight tunnel idea with little headway. My only point was to integrate these two projects to make both more viable, since there would be cost savings compared to each individually.

sC

Hebrewman9

Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by Hebrewman9 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:12 pm

SystemsConsciousness wrote:I agree with you about the politics. Jerry Nadler has been pushing his freight tunnel idea with little headway. My only point was to integrate these two projects to make both more viable, since there would be cost savings compared to each individually.

sC
I like this idea, I think it's a possibility. Piggybacking onto another project isn't necessarily out of the question.

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Re: R Train to Staten Island

Post by jonnhrr » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:03 pm

This idea can't be completely ridiculous as it was proposed back in the Dual Contracts era and design and some excavation work was actually done to build a link around 59th St (Brooklyn) from the 4th ave subway to a tunnel to SI.

I agree that there are more likely projects to get done such as the 2nd ave subway. I suppose this might happen if they could tie it into a freight tunnel. But since there is now a rail freight connection via NJ (Chem coast secondary) is there really a need for a freight tunnel anymore?

Also I thought there was talk about connecting the Hudson Bergen light rail to SI. Wouldn't help commuters going to Manhattan but provide a link to jobs in NJ.

Jon
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