Hell Gate line ROW: Room for subway tracks?

[JayMan]

The ancient proposal for the eventual Bronx connection to the Second Avenue Subway made use of the Bronx Amtrak ROW to reach Co-op City. I am wondering if this is presently feasible. If and when someday a Bronx extention of the SAS was built, could more tracks be fit into this ROW? Or could two existing tracks be commondeered (as I think Amtrak only uses two)? An idea for a new Bronx subway was to be under Third Av and then Boston Rd, then into the Amtrak ROW and then under Co-op City. Is there any FRA restrictions involved being eventhough the trains will not be sharing trackage, just the ROW (the subway tracks being on the western side of ROW I assume)?

[7 Train]

There are three tracks in use on the Hell Gate Bridge. The two south tracks (electrified) are Amtrak. The second track from the north side is for CSX, CP and PW freight. The Northernmost track was turn up the 80s.

[LI Loco]

The Hell Gate branch was originally six tracks so there should be plenty of room for a two-track subway line. The bridge itself has room for four tracks. Three are currently in use; two Amtrak, one CSX. However, I'm not aware of any plant to put a rapid transit line on the bridge.

[TomNelligan]

Of course in primordial times (from 1912 to 1937) the Hell Gate line *did* accomodate what was basically rapid transit north/east of Harlem River station in the Bronx, as the right-of-way was shared with NH subsidiary New York, Westchester & Boston. There's still plenty of room for two Amtrak tracks and two transit tracks, assuming money became available for the necessary construction.

There's no FRA regulatory problem with rail and rapid transit sharing a common right-of-way as long as the tracks themselves are separate. There are a bunch of examples of this around the country. Four that immediately come to mind are the southern part of the MBTA Red Line in Boston, which shares an ex-New Haven right-of-way (which was once four tracks) with Old Colony commuter trains on the Braintree branch south of Andrew Square, the PATH line into Newark (once a joint operation with the Pennsylvania RR) that parallels the Northeast Corridor through Harrison, the Washington Metro line that parallels the former Baltimore & Ohio mainline through Silver Spring, and the San Diego Trolley Blue Line that shares the ex-Santa Fe right-of-way used by Amtrak and commuter trains for a couple miles north of downtown.

[JayMan]

No they wouldn't use the bridge. This is speculation on my part, but the subway probably emerge from underground and join the ROW in the vicinity of the Cross Bronx Exp. I was just wondering if there would enough room for 2 more tracks, probably on the north side of the ROW, so it could dip below ground again by around the Hutchinson River Pkwy to head under Co-op City.

[JayMan]

It's on topic because I was wondering if the ROW owned by Amtrak could accomodate tracks for subway.

[Otto Vondrak]

I'm going to move this discussion over to the NYC Subway forum, for further exploration of the topic.

-otto-

[GP38]

It's on topic because I was wondering if the ROW owned by Amtrak could accomodate tracks for subway.

JayMan, there are currently not enough tracks on the Hell Gate Bridge. The bridge was built for four tracks, but they only use three currently (the other one was ripped up). Amtrak uses two, and CSX (and the other freight RR's that come into Fresh Pond) use the other bidirectionally.
They would have to add a fifth track for the subway, as the subway can not share trackage with passenger or freight RR's, as the subway is not under FRA requirements.
I guess technically they could put the freight on the Amtrak tracks if they had to, but that would bring capacity down.
So in summary, using existing infastructure, the freight could be moved to the Amtrak (freight and Amtrak can share trackage) and the freight track and the unused trackway could be given over to the subway system, but I don't know if they would want to shrink Amtrak's or the freight's capacity by combining them together.

[JayMan]

I don't think the subway line need be that far south, but enter from around the area of West Farms Square, and could exist as two new tracks on the north (west) side of the ROW.

[DogBert]

It'll never happen.

Amtrak runs on weekdays during the day at least once an hour, during the summer, there can be as many as 5-6 freights in one 24 hour period, and with NY&A doing good at getting more customers, there's only going to be more and more freight in the years to come. If i were Amtrak, I'd want the status quo. Freight and amtrak seperate.

If anything, they might get a few metro north trains down the line and into penn after ESA is done, but I doubt even that will happen.

[JayMan]

If they add two additional tracks for subway service then Amtrak and freight lines will still have their own track and will still run separately. Additionally, they could add another track for freight, if the line has room for 6 tracks.

[Noel Weaver]

There is NO room on Hell Gate Bridge for subway tracks or trains. CSX
has one track for freight transfers between the LIRR at Fremont (now the
New York and Atlantic) and Amtrak has the other two tracks for thier
operations. Amtrak has in excess of twenty round trips a day over this
line and freight operation would raise havoc with their operation.
There is no reason that the Hell Gate Line itself from Oak Point to the
Coop City/Pelham Bay area could support two more tracks for subway
use although they might have a problem with space for station platforms
on the subway tracks.
In any event, it would be very costly to expand this line to six tracks at this stage.
It seems to me that the most reasonable way to serve the Coop City/
Pelham Bay area would be to extend the subway line that terminates in
the a a little farther north to serve Coop City.
As for Hell Gate Bridge, Amtrak owns it and if you think they will permit
major changes that will drastically affect their operations, think again,
they will not allow it for sure. It would not be a good subway route either,
going from Manhattan through a bit of Queens to get to the Bronx, it does
not make sense.
Noel Weaver

[JayMan]

Well, actually I never did mention use of the bridge, as you are quite correct it would be a poor subway line.

However, the thought was more along the line something similar to the RPA's Metrolink proposal, which was stated in my initial post:

An idea for a new Bronx subway was to be under Third Av and then Boston Rd, then into the Amtrak ROW and then under Co-op City.

The subway would join the ROW in the vicinity of West Farms Square -- though I'm not sure how clearing the Bronx River would be handled (i.e., if the line crosses the river below as tunnel, there would be too steep a grade to join the Amtrak ROW by Unionport Rd or so. If it goes over as a low truss it would have to emerge from underground sort of parallel to the ROW before it crosses the Bronx river.

In any event, it would be very costly to expand this line to six tracks at this stage.
It seems to me that the most reasonable way to serve the Coop City/
Pelham Bay area would be to extend the subway line that terminates in
the a a little farther north to serve Coop City.

Well, you'd really only need 5 tracks (since freight only uses 1) -- and would that be that much more cost effective that extending the Pelham IRT (adding even more crowding to the Lex line)?

Besides this route gives some subway service to the Melrose area -- not exactly a high priority, I know, but it adds new service, relatively inexpensively (at least, cheaper than building all new subways and els), and doesn't over burden an existing line, and would provide an actual use for the SAS north of Manhattan.

[N.Y. State Of Mind]

If not subway, how about an extension of the NJT NEC or M&E to at least New Rochelle?

[JayMan]

It'll never happen.

If anything, they might get a few metro north trains down the line and into penn after ESA is done, but I doubt even that will happen.

Hmm -- will if Amtrak is using up its capacity on its two tracks, then Metro-North Penn acess, if ever done, would also require more tracks. Unless MN shares trackage with the freight lines, perhaps MN Penn Access and subway service to Co-op via the Amtrak ROW are an either/or situation. As MN Penn access is riddled with problems as it is (namely, no room in NYP) I say the subway would be more likely to get built.

My solution to the whole problem would be insanely more expensive but would relieve all commuter rail access into the city, which I'll go over in a new thread.