R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

[GirlOnTheTrain]

At this point they're about 3 years behind schedule.

There were the welding cracks that set the project back 2 years, etc.

This is an old post from Second Avenue Sagas but it's a good summary of what the deal is: http://secondavenuesagas.com/2015/08/14 ... 0-million/

Yet, a closer look at the MTA’s board documents from early 2012 [pdf] reveals some early caution flags. Bombardier’s bid of $599 million for the rolling stock order came in under a bid by an Alstom/Kawaski. In its board materials, the MTA noted a cost savings of around $12.4 million — a total that has been completely wiped away by Bombardier’s late delivery. The bid assessment notes that Bombardier’s technical presentation was “acceptable” but that the ALSKAW bid “ranked higher” in “technical merit.” In other words, ALSKAW was better positioned to deliver on the specs of the R179 order, but Bombardier offered a better price. Since the MTA hadn’t disqualified Bombardier, the company won the contract, and here we are.

[Backshophoss]

BBD was late with the M-7 order to LIRR and MN,and at some point leased LIRR's Arch street shop to do warranty work.
Also past history on other major projects has come back to roost at BBD HQ from both sides of the Alantic(ie,London,and Europe).

[trainbrain]

Assuming they both bid, MTA will be going with Kawasaki or Alstom for sure. They both have plants in NY. I know that Alstom is bidding, but I am not sure about Kawasaki. I think Kawasaki has the best record in MTA contracts among the manufacturers. Apart from the really weird design of the LIRR bi-levels, I don't think they've really had any major problems with MTA contracts. Their first one was the R62's in the 80's, and those cars were considered to be the most reliable in the fleet until the R142's and R142A's started arriving. Since then they've done the R68A's, R142A's, R160B's, and R188's. On MNCR they have done the M8's and LIRR and MNCR will be getting M9's in the near future.

Bombardier has done a great job with the Multilevels and ALP-46, ALP-46A, and ALP-45DP locomotives on NJT. Not sure why they've botched some other projects lately.

[GirlOnTheTrain]

Kawasaki is bidding with Alstom in the same manner that Bombardier was teaming up with that Chinese company that's building the new MBTA cars before they were told to beat it in regards to this bid process.

[trainbrain]

How exactly does one company bid with another? Do they have the plan to split various portions of the contract, for example using Kawasaki car bodies and Alstom propulsion?

I believe Siemens is also bidding on the R211.

We should make a list on here as to what companies bid. So far we have:

Alstom/Kawasaki
Siemens
Hyundai Rotem
Chinese company that's making MBTA's nee equipment.

Anyone know of any others?

[GirlOnTheTrain]

CRRC was bidding in conjunction with Bombardier, so that's a nope. Rotem and Siemens are speculation from...here? - so about all that's concrete is Kawasaki/Alstom...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-newy ... SKCN1BC3CS

I can't find anything mentioning Rotem or Siemens in conjunction with the 211's, only California stuff. If anyone actually has any references otherwise, do share.

[Head-end View]

I'm surprised to hear that Bombardier is having big problems. Although the delivery of the M-7's to LIRR/Metro-North may have been late, LIRR at least is generally satisfied with them.

[trainbrain]

CRRC was bidding in conjunction with Bombardier, so that's a nope. Rotem and Siemens are speculation from...here? - so about all that's concrete is Kawasaki/Alstom...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-newy ... SKCN1BC3CS

I can't find anything mentioning Rotem or Siemens in conjunction with the 211's, only California stuff. If anyone actually has any references otherwise, do share.

Well if Rotem or Siemens isn't bidding, the Kawasaki/Alstom it is.

[tommyboy6181]

It actually could bring out some new potential bidders knowing Bombardier is out. Ever since Hitachi bought out AnsaldoBreda, Hitachi fixed a ton of their issues and they're finally able to produce railcars on time. Knowing Hitachi wants to re-establish itself in the US Market, you never know. They might be interested.

[tommyboy6181]

It appears that Kawasaki is getting the R211 order. From the article, the carshells will be built in Lincoln, Nebraska and then have assembly and testing work done in Yonkers.
Link: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Compan ... ars?page=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jeff Smith]

What sort of problems is Bombardier having building the R-179's and why? Haven't they been a relatively good builder in past years?

Toronto IIRC had an awful time with their LRT acquisition, and fired BBD.

[Jeff Smith]

Some more background: RailJournal.com

...
Kawasaki’s final negotiated price was $US 1.44bn for the base order for 535 vehicles, with an offer of $US 1.33bn for an initial option for 640 cars and $US 913.57m for a second option for 437 cars. The total price of $US 3.69bn is 18% lower than MTA’s original estimate of $US 4.48bn.

The base order comprises 440 closed-gangway and 20 prototype open-gangway cars for the ‘B’ Division and 75 closed-gangway cars for the Staten Island Railway.

The number of open-gangway cars in the base order has been increased to enable multiple tests to be conducted on a parallel timeline and therefore accelerate the acceptance of open-gangway cars. If tests are successful, all cars from the initial option could be delivered in open-gangway configuration.

Alongside the bid from Kawasaki, a second offer was submitted by R211 Partners, a joint venture of Bombardier Transit Corporation and CRRC MA. However, the selection committee unanimously ruled that the R211 Partners proposal did not meet the minimum requirements of the technical evaluation criteria.
...
MTA says the R211 order calls for “the most aggressive delivery of prototype cars of any NYC Transit subway car contract,” with the delivery of the first 10 pre-series closed-gangway cars due to take place within 10 months of Notice of Award (NOA).

Delivery of production closed-gangway vehicles will take place between 44 and 67 months of NOA. The Staten Island fleet will be delivered between 56 and 65 months of NOA.

The new cars will replace R42 cars dating from1969-70, and some R32 cars, which are more than 50 years old.
...

[tommyboy6181]

What sort of problems is Bombardier having building the R-179's and why? Haven't they been a relatively good builder in past years?

Toronto IIRC had an awful time with their LRT acquisition, and fired BBD.

Toronto didn't fire Bombardier as the streetcar contract is still ongoing. That was because Metrolinx attempted to cancel the contract and was blocked by the courts. However, there was a modification to the contract where there will be less Bombardier streetcars produced and that the TTC will get some money back.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/0 ... tract.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.fool.ca/2018/01/12/further- ... rdier-inc/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metrolinx selected Alstom to build streetcars due to the ongoing issues with Bombardier.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/0 ... titor.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tommyboy6181]

So now that there was a YouTube video posted of the R211 body shells taken in Japan (which seems to have been taken down), I have to say that I'm liking the updated cab ends. That being said, I'm wondering if Kawasaki decides to make the move to possibly using PMSM propulsion on the new fleet and/or if they opt to go with SiC-VVVF inverters instead of the standard IGBT we see on all of the current NTT cars. The reason I'm thinking this is that Bombardier and Toshiba have full propulsion packages that combine PMSM motors with SiC inverters which have less noise and less weight on the cars. Mitsubishi has also come out with their own SiC inverters which have been used with PMSM motors from other companies in Japan as well. Anyone want to speculate what NYCT chooses to do in this case?

[Jeff Smith]

https://secretnyc.co/mta-will-roll-rede ... -2020/amp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...
The new trains are part of the “Fast Forward” plans announced early last year that will allow 50 years worth of subway updates to take place in only a decade. There will be nearly 5,000 new subway cars introduced to the tracks within that time.

However, according to the original press release for these redesigned subway cars, there are plans to add 1,025 of the reimagined trains to the system by 2020. This will include about 750 with “open car end” designs. The press release details that the new subway cars:
...