PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

[Adirondacker]

But it would be the cheapest possible subway connection to Staten Island that integrates the SIR--cheaper ...

Spending money on things that allow you to run almost empty trains isn't cheap.

[FRN9]

But it would be the cheapest possible subway connection to Staten Island that integrates the SIR--cheaper ...

Spending money on things that allow you to run almost empty trains isn't cheap.

Fair enough, but would you then say that any subway extension to staten island would be empty?

[Adirondacker]

But it would be the cheapest possible subway connection to Staten Island that integrates the SIR--cheaper ...

Spending money on things that allow you to run almost empty trains isn't cheap.

Fair enough, but would you then say that any subway extension to staten island would be empty?

One that goes to Newark? Yes.

[FRN9]

But it would be the cheapest possible subway connection to Staten Island that integrates the SIR--cheaper ...

Spending money on things that allow you to run almost empty trains isn't cheap.

Fair enough, but would you then say that any subway extension to staten island would be empty?

One that goes to Newark? Yes.

It would terminate at 33rd Street and WTC. The is almost as much a NYC train as it is an NJ train with 6 stops in Manhattan and 7 in NJ.

The tunnel under the Narrows is bad enough, but imagine creating a ROW for the R train to connect to the SIR. What I am proposing is far easier to do in terms of tunneling and in terms of new ROW. Therefore, it would be far cheaper.

Furthermore, the R train has 15 stops in before it arrives in Manhattan. I am proposing a train that would have 8. Future rolling stock purchase could be faster and that would save time as well.

So it's faster and cheaper. This is why express buses from Staten Island travel via NJ instead of via Brooklyn.

[Adirondacker]

So it's faster and cheaper. This is why express buses from Staten Island travel via NJ instead of via Brooklyn.

When you can figure out how to get a train from St. George to Newark, making a stop at the airport, in three minutes, then it's faster. From the looks of it, I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking at the bus map, the buses that use the Lincoln Tunnel are on the west side of Staten Island. To serve those people you have to put a station on the west side of Staten Island. So get from St. George, stop place on the west of Staten Island, Newark Airport and get to Newark in under three minutes. Good luck.

It's not faster.

[Don31]

I took a quick lok at these posts and the maps and offer the following:

1. The proposed alignment cuts across the airport from Terminal A to the Turnpike. In order to actually do so, it would need to be underground. This would be cost prohibitive as it would require building station stops beneath each terminal. Also, the distance between the Airport Station on the NEC (at-grade) to Terminal C (below-grade) is too short to accommodate a reasonable gradient.

2. The same logic applies between the Turnpike and IKEA - it would all need to be below-grade, with a basement station at IKEA.

3. Why Ikea? Much of what it sells is big and bulky - not well-suited for rail travel. Why not Jersey Gardens, which sees more customers anyway.

4. Continuing underground from IKEA/Jersey Gardens to Bayonne to the SI North Shore would be astronomically expensive. The PA is no longer the bottemless money machine it once was.

5. Using the ex-CNJ Mainline west to Aldene is also problematic. NJ Transit has proposed using it as a ROW for a BRT system.

[andre]

So it's faster and cheaper. This is why express buses from Staten Island travel via NJ instead of via Brooklyn.

When you can figure out how to get a train from St. George to Newark, making a stop at the airport, in three minutes, then it's faster. From the looks of it, I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking at the bus map, the buses that use the Lincoln Tunnel are on the west side of Staten Island. To serve those people you have to put a station on the west side of Staten Island. So get from St. George, stop place on the west of Staten Island, Newark Airport and get to Newark in under three minutes. Good luck.

It's not faster.

It does take quite a while to get from the west shore of the island to the ferry by local buses (even the limited buses) actually longer then it takes to take an express bus to their jobs in the city. Usually most islanders who are going to newark arent going to downtown newark, theyre going to the airport, ikea, jersey gardens, woodbridge mall, or the various stores on RT 1/9 for the cheaper sales tax in NJ than in NY. They even go over the bridge to get gas at a much cheaper rate even with the bridge toll...

But if you really want to make the trip into Newark and ultimately downtown via the PATH then yes linking it to St George does make sense via the ROW of the North Shore Line making stops at the original stations along the way. The problem you run into is once you reach arlington yard(mariners harbor) where the Container terminal and trash trains are lined up to go over the lift bridge. How do you cross the arthur kill. The river is very busy with a high volume of ship traffic which makes it difficult to have the lift bridge lowered for extended periods of time throughout the day (rush hours etc) (Unless you plan on using the future goethals replacement, and if you do once your on the jersey side in elizabeth where do you go from there?

I love the idea of having a quick ride to NJ via path and being able to reach downtown manhattan but I reach downtown on the express bus in about 45mins to an hour from the west shore and midtown in 90 mins during the AM rush. and in order to get the people off the buses and onto the train it will have to beat those end to end trip times as well as be equally as convenient/comfortable (many people who live close to the ferry opt for the express bus over the local bus/ferry connection due to the quiet one seat ride and reclining seats.)

[FRN9]

So it's faster and cheaper. This is why express buses from Staten Island travel via NJ instead of via Brooklyn.

When you can figure out how to get a train from St. George to Newark, making a stop at the airport, in three minutes, then it's faster. From the looks of it, I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking at the bus map, the buses that use the Lincoln Tunnel are on the west side of Staten Island. To serve those people you have to put a station on the west side of Staten Island. So get from St. George, stop place on the west of Staten Island, Newark Airport and get to Newark in under three minutes. Good luck.

It's not faster.

It does take quite a while to get from the west shore of the island to the ferry by local buses (even the limited buses) actually longer then it takes to take an express bus to their jobs in the city. Usually most islanders who are going to newark arent going to downtown newark, theyre going to the airport, ikea, jersey gardens, woodbridge mall, or the various stores on RT 1/9 for the cheaper sales tax in NJ than in NY. They even go over the bridge to get gas at a much cheaper rate even with the bridge toll...

But if you really want to make the trip into Newark and ultimately downtown via the PATH then yes linking it to St George does make sense via the ROW of the North Shore Line making stops at the original stations along the way. The problem you run into is once you reach arlington yard(mariners harbor) where the Container terminal and trash trains are lined up to go over the lift bridge. How do you cross the arthur kill. The river is very busy with a high volume of ship traffic which makes it difficult to have the lift bridge lowered for extended periods of time throughout the day (rush hours etc) (Unless you plan on using the future goethals replacement, and if you do once your on the jersey side in elizabeth where do you go from there?

I love the idea of having a quick ride to NJ via path and being able to reach downtown manhattan but I reach downtown on the express bus in about 45mins to an hour from the west shore and midtown in 90 mins during the AM rush. and in order to get the people off the buses and onto the train it will have to beat those end to end trip times as well as be equally as convenient/comfortable (many people who live close to the ferry opt for the express bus over the local bus/ferry connection due to the quiet one seat ride and reclining seats.)

Andre,

It all sounds good. For those near the ferry going to lower Manhattan, perhaps this is the best option. It's a beautiful view and fun.

With 75MPH trains (like the Washington DC subway), and long distances between stations before Jersey City, trains could move many people very quickly to WTC and the rest of lower Manhattan.

I think that if the MTA were to add a free interchange with other subways (at WTC, 14 Street and 34 Street), it would be very attractive for commuters throughout Staten Island to catch the "PATH" train directly to Manhattan-a single seat ride is a magical thing.

Plus, there are connections to the HBLR (in Bayonne) and Ikea shopping center, which could become developed to be huge, Newark Airport (+ NJT and Amtrak), which also could gain huge commercial development near it and of course, downtown Jersey City, Newark and Hoboken.

So it's great for NJ and Staten Island.

Also, as far as route goes, what I have proposed would be a tunnel near St. George across to Bayonne and then Newark. Perhaps it would be possible to feed trains from the North Shore into that Tunnel as well. The tunnel would obviously mean that traffic on the water would not be disturbed. Furthermore the tunnel from Bayonne would also accommodate the HBLR, which could be extended to Aldene.

This would be a great location for a mall/train station which would accommodate the RVL and the HBLR, with parking for people driving from the Garden State Parkway, which is next door. The old CNJ ROW could accommodate the HBLR and it would also provide a connection to the NE corridor at Elizabeth.

[Adirondacker]

It does take quite a while to get from the west shore of the island to the ferry by local buses (even the limited buses) actually longer then it takes to take an express bus to their jobs in the city.

Taking slow bus to the bridge is not going to be any faster because it is going to the train station next to the bridge.

Usually most islanders who are going to newark arent going to downtown newark, theyre going to the airport, ikea, jersey gardens, woodbridge mall, or the various stores on RT 1/9 for the cheaper sales tax in NJ than in NY. They even go over the bridge to get gas at a much cheaper rate even with the bridge toll...

Having the train stop at Ikea doesn't get them to Woodbridge Mall, the stores on 1&9 or Jersey Gardens Mall. They'll still drive to those places. The reduced toll Staten Islanders pay is $5.25. People who tell you they are doing it to save sales tax are lying unless they are spending a lot of money. They have to save at least $5.25 in sales tax to break even. That doesn't account for the gas they burned. Half a gallon of gas, even at New Jersey prices is a $1.60. They have to be saving $6.85 in taxes to break even. A really quick check of gas prices shows that gas is 50 cents cheaper a gallon in New Jersey. They have to buy at least ten gallons of gas to break even on the toll. 13 gallons if they burned half a gallon of gas to get to the gas station in New Jersey. Buy 17 gallons of gas and they save a whole two bucks. If they live really close to the bridge and traffic is very light they might get away with doing it in a half hour. People who tell you they are driving to New Jersey to buy gas are lying or reallly realllly stupid. That explains why there are gas stations all over Staten Island. People buy gas where it's easy to buy and only has a slight premium over the places that are much harder to get to.

If the bus gets you to the train station as fast as it gets you to the bridge, how long does it take to get off the bus go through the turnstiles and wait for the next train? How long does it take for it to get from the Goethals Bridge, stop some place in Elizabeth, stop at the airport and stop in Newark? Then add 22 minutes to get to the World Trade Center. How much faster is that than just staying on the bus?

[25Hz]

PATH is a bi-state operation, and will never be integrated into MTA or NJT.

HBLR could cross into staten island at some point, but it needs to be extended in NJ first.

I think a separate service running from SI to elizabeth is a good idea, perhaps even run by the PA, but i think it should use something other than PA-5.

Running trains on a huge long route as is being proposed here, is NOT a good idea AT ALL. The trains are timed to arrive after in AM and before in PM NJT and amtrak trains at newark penn. They are timed to meet trains at journal square AND exchange place. Not only that, but you'd need more cars, more engineers, more conductors, new stations, new whole rights of way, and raise fares to cover the increase costs.

Just no on so many fronts, it just is a foamy fantasy and not practical. And this is coming from the king of foamy fantasies and "what if".

[FRN9]

PATH is a bi-state operation, and will never be integrated into MTA or NJT.

HBLR could cross into staten island at some point, but it needs to be extended in NJ first.

I think a separate service running from SI to elizabeth is a good idea, perhaps even run by the PA, but i think it should use something other than PA-5.

Running trains on a huge long route as is being proposed here, is NOT a good idea AT ALL. The trains are timed to arrive after in AM and before in PM NJT and amtrak trains at newark penn. They are timed to meet trains at journal square AND exchange place. Not only that, but you'd need more cars, more engineers, more conductors, new stations, new whole rights of way, and raise fares to cover the increase costs.

Just no on so many fronts, it just is a foamy fantasy and not practical. And this is coming from the king of foamy fantasies and "what if".

My point is that this is a more practical idea than extending the R train to Staten Island. One reason is because of the ROWs available via this route, which travels through industrial areas or via existing ROWs.

I'm sympathetic to realism associated with cost, but less sympathetic based on which political entity presently runs the PATH service. Transferring the PATH system to the MTA won't cost billions of dollars and it could be worked out with the right subsidy arrangement. I believe that the MTA could run PATH for less money (subsidy) given their existing economies of scale. If PATH were extended to Staten Island, then this would be a good reason for NYC to take on this burden (but with continued subsidy from the Port Authority). I don't think this is any less realistic than SEPTA or NJT taking over the running of PATCO, which is presently being discussed.

PA-5 cars are very similar the MTA subway cars, so they would easily run along the SIR. Future stock purchases could include cars that travel at a top speed 75MPH, like the Washington DC metro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington ... ling_stock). I don't believe the length of this proposed line is any longer than the A train, the longest line of the MTA, but even so, it could be possible to change the crew at Newark.

What I am suggesting for the HBLR is an extension (with PATH) to an IKEA stop and then continue along the old CNJ ROW to Elizabeth and then further on the ROW to Aldene, where a new junction station can be built between HBLR and the RVL. Furthermore, it would be a perfect location for a large shopping center, which also would be easily accessible via the Garden State Turnpike.

[Don31]

My point is that this is a more practical idea than extending the R train to Staten Island. One reason is because of the ROWs available via this route, which travels through industrial areas or via existing ROWs.

Furthermore, it would be a perfect location for a large shopping center, which also would be easily accessible via the Garden State Turnpike.

Given the physical limitations that I outlined the other day, can you please explain how all this is a practical idea?

Where on earth would you locate a large shopping center near Aldene????

[FRN9]

My point is that this is a more practical idea than extending the R train to Staten Island. One reason is because of the ROWs available via this route, which travels through industrial areas or via existing ROWs.

Furthermore, it would be a perfect location for a large shopping center, which also would be easily accessible via the Garden State Turnpike.

Given the physical limitations that I outlined the other day, can you please explain how all this is a practical idea?
The plan is not a big deal when compared to the cost and practicality of extending the R train from Bay Ridge under the Narrows into Staten Island and building a new ROW to connect it to the existing SIRR.

Part of the idea is predicated on extending the PATH train to Newark Airport, which has been erroneously described as a single-seat-ride. Instead, why not make it a full single seat ride to the terminals. Once its there, it's possible using cut and cover inside the airport to continue to the Ikea Elizabeth shopping center. From there, its possible to travel to Bayonne via tunnel the kind that is dropped in the water (like east 63 street tunnels) and then the same through to Staten Island connecting to the ROW of SIRR.

I am not saying this is cheap, but it does make sense if you look beyond the state political boundaries and compare it to the R train extension to Staten Island.

I believe the HBLR to Elizabeth and possibly to Aldene has already been put under consideration.


Where on earth would you locate a large shopping center near Aldene????

It would be located at a RVL station, the terminus of the extended HBLR and Garden State Parkway exit #137. The mall could be partly build over the rail line which would mean a station inside the mall. Plus, there could be integrated parking for the mall and park and ride. The income from this development could fund the cost of part of the HBLR extension and the new stations.

[Don31]

Part of the idea is predicated on extending the PATH train to Newark Airport, which has been erroneously described as a single-seat-ride. Instead, why not make it a full single seat ride to the terminals.

Once its there, it's possible using cut and cover inside the airport to continue to the Ikea Elizabeth shopping center.

I am not saying this is cheap, but it does make sense if you look beyond the state political boundaries and compare it to the R train extension to Staten Island.

I believe the HBLR to Elizabeth and possibly to Aldene has already been put under consideration.

It would be located at a RVL station, the terminus of the extended HBLR and Garden State Parkway exit #137. The mall could be partly build over the rail line which would mean a station inside the mall. Plus, there could be integrated parking for the mall and park and ride. The income from this development could fund the cost of part of the HBLR extension and the new stations.

I'm sorry, I really mean no disrespect, but I don't even know where to begin to respond.

Several previous PATH - EWR studies looked at possibly going all the way into the CTA. The idea was rejected.

It's not possible to use cut-and-cover inside the airport. How would you pull it off within the AOA????

I agree, it wouldn't be cheap. But it doesn't make sense.

Light rail to Aldene? It was known as the Union County Light Rail initiative, which was MOS-3 of the Newark-Elizabeth Rail Link. NJ Transit removed it from its Capital Plan in 2005 or 2006. Its no longer a viable proposal.

There isn't really any good location on your map to site a mall. I can pretty much guarantee that any proposal for such a thing would meet fierce opposition from the locals.

[FRN9]

Part of the idea is predicated on extending the PATH train to Newark Airport, which has been erroneously described as a single-seat-ride. Instead, why not make it a full single seat ride to the terminals.

Once its there, it's possible using cut and cover inside the airport to continue to the Ikea Elizabeth shopping center.

I am not saying this is cheap, but it does make sense if you look beyond the state political boundaries and compare it to the R train extension to Staten Island.

I believe the HBLR to Elizabeth and possibly to Aldene has already been put under consideration.

It would be located at a RVL station, the terminus of the extended HBLR and Garden State Parkway exit #137. The mall could be partly build over the rail line which would mean a station inside the mall. Plus, there could be integrated parking for the mall and park and ride. The income from this development could fund the cost of part of the HBLR extension and the new stations.

I'm sorry, I really mean no disrespect, but I don't even know where to begin to respond.

Several previous PATH - EWR studies looked at possibly going all the way into the CTA. The idea was rejected.

It's not possible to use cut-and-cover inside the airport. How would you pull it off within the AOA????

I agree, it wouldn't be cheap. But it doesn't make sense.

Light rail to Aldene? It was known as the Union County Light Rail initiative, which was MOS-3 of the Newark-Elizabeth Rail Link. NJ Transit removed it from its Capital Plan in 2005 or 2006. Its no longer a viable proposal.


There isn't really any good location on your map to site a mall. I can pretty much guarantee that any proposal for such a thing would meet fierce opposition from the locals.

The plan to expand Newark Airport involve removing parts of all 3 terminals. Obviously this is a major project and while they are doing it, it would be possible to build PATH integration at the same time. The PATH can be tunneled underneath the AOA as part of these renovations. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/nyreg ... wanted=all

Maybe the problem with the Union County Light Rail initiative was that it wasn't ambitious enough and didn't have the shared station with RVL and mall/parking idea.

If some local developer would make a lot of money on the project (and give some of it in donations to politicians), then the Christie administration could squash any local opposition. There would be plenty of local jobs at the mall.