Hoboken Jersey City Track

[erie910]

Many years ago, I was told that H&M planned a second set of tunnels running south from the junction near the Hoboken station to the junction of the lines to WTC and Journal Square/Newark. The tower which controls the junction at Hoboken supposedly was placed in the entrance to the second set of tunnels, and there were staircases constructed from the Pavonia/Newport platform now in use to the platforms of the lower set of tunnels. Is there any truth to this? When I last rode PATH, which is quite a few years ago, I thought that one could observe additional tunnel entrances at these junctions, but they did not have any track in them.

[25Hz]

I've never observed anything like that myself. I will say it isn't too far fetched, i mean the astor place stub was built, and that isn't some little tunnel start pocket it's a good 35 feet back from the elbow there.

The only questions i've ever had based on stuff i saw were about exp and pavonia/newport stations.

They may be construction remnants where they staged excavated material for removal above ground etc, but not actual planned tubes.

[CarterB]

IIRC, back when H&M being built, the Erie had considered it's own tunnel to NYC from Pavonia for heavy rail? Separate from the H&M operations.

[Terry Kennedy]

Many years ago, I was told that H&M planned a second set of tunnels running south from the junction near the Hoboken station to the junction of the lines to WTC and Journal Square/Newark. The tower which controls the junction at Hoboken supposedly was placed in the entrance to the second set of tunnels, and there were staircases constructed from the Pavonia/Newport platform now in use to the platforms of the lower set of tunnels. Is there any truth to this?

The H&M had many plans for other routes. Most of them were never begun at all. I should have copies of all of them here. They're large and on varnished linen, so unfolding them and getting them into the scanner would be problematic.

All of the abandoned constructed parts are short segments or simple concrete pieces. Off the top of my head:

o The Astor Place extension mentioned by another poster.
o Short section of the original construction for tunnel B (from original 1874-1882 construction) abandoned when H&M took over and went to an over/under configuration in the caisson.
o In the caisson coming from NY, at the current 2-way split for Hoboken or Pavonia, there's another (center) position which would have gone to Newark. Signal shed and some power gear at the openings.
o West of Grove Street, provision for route to CRR. Signal shed and power gear blocks the westbound opening, the eastbound opening was walled off some years ago.
o East of Grove Street on route to Exchange Place, short section of tunnel with rings. This was reinforcement to handle a separate tunnel to CRR (different route from the one at Grove Street) crossing over at a 90-degree angle.
o At Hudson Terminal, provisions for 2 additional tunnels. Bellmouths built (and subsequently demolished) and short sections of tunnel along side F track and under E track, still there but sealed off.
o The previous 2 tunnels would have gone directly to Pavonia from Hudson Terminal. Provisions at the junction north of Pavonia for these, with the usual signal shed and power gear blocking the opening.

I think that last one is what you're referring to. Look at the 2 tunnels on the bottom right of this picture and you'll see how it would have worked.



Did I miss anything?

[umtrr-author]

Wow, I had no idea... thank you for sharing!

One clarifying question: What / where is "Tunnel B"?

[Terry Kennedy]

One clarifying question: What / where is "Tunnel B"?

Among its other failings, this forum no longer allows me to post inline images bigger than a certain size, even when I'm hosting them on my own server and causing no load on the forum.

Click me

[25Hz]

Which part of tunnel B is abandoned?

[Terry Kennedy]

Which part of tunnel B is abandoned?

The area around the 15th street shaft. Have a look at this:


The caption reads "SOUTH TUNNEL, UPTOWN LINE. SHIELD REVERSED DRIVING THROUGH THE SOUTH TUNNEL AT A LOWER GRADE, SO THAT IT SHOULD PASS BELOW THE NORTH TUNNEL AT CAISSON NO. 1 IN JERSEY CITY". The junction illustration I posted earlier in this thread shows the over/under reconfiguration.

There's a brief but interesting description of it in the Fordham reprint edition of Granick's "Underneath New York". The introduction has a recent copyright (1991) so I won't post it here, but Google Books has it here. [About halfway down page xxiii.]

[umtrr-author]

One clarifying question: What / where is "Tunnel B"?

Among its other failings, this forum no longer allows me to post inline images bigger than a certain size, even when I'm hosting them on my own server and causing no load on the forum.

Click me

I did, thanks! This all makes much more sense now. As a native of Jersey City, I had no real idea of how the PATH was laid out at this level of detail.

[erie910]

Mr. Kennedy,

You got it! Thanks so much. The diagram which you posted shows what I had thought was the intention, but, apparently, was not ever constructed. Now, another question: Was the Exchange Place station constructed for the Pennsylvania Railroad, even though commuters had the option of changing to H&M at Manhattan Transfer? If not, what is in the vicinity of Exchange Place which warrants a Tube station?

[Terry Kennedy]

You got it! Thanks so much. The diagram which you posted shows what I had thought was the intention, but, apparently, was not ever constructed. Now, another question: Was the Exchange Place station constructed for the Pennsylvania Railroad, even though commuters had the option of changing to H&M at Manhattan Transfer? If not, what is in the vicinity of Exchange Place which warrants a Tube station?

Yes, all of the passenger railroads ended at the Hudson River, in separate terminals. Exchange Place for the Pennsylvania, Pavonia for the Erie (hence the "E" on the PATH platform's columns), what is now Liberty State Park for the Central Railroad, and Hoboken for the Lackawanna. There were ferries to take passengers from those terminals to various locations in New York. Those ferries were either operated by the railroads themselves, or the railroads received a portion of the ferry's revenue. Their relations with the Hudson & Manhattan (and predecessor companies) weren't always 100% harmonious. For example, the Lackawanna sued to stop construction of the tunnels in 1874, a court case that dragged on for 5 years. The Pennsylvania allowed the H&M to build the Exchange Place station under their existing terminal, but then decided to build their own tunnels under the Hudson to connect to a new Pennsylvania Station in Manhattan.

The H&M tried to keep the railroads happy. The Pennsylvania had "joint operation" with the H&M west of Journal Square. The Erie was promised a separate set of tunnels from Hudson Terminal direct to their station at Pavonia, without going though the competing Pennsylvania terminal at Exchange Place. That's what we were discussing above. The Lackawanna had their settlement from the 1874 lawsuit. The H&M extension to the Central Railroad terminal was never built.

[JimBoylan]

The PRR continued to use Exchange Place, New Jersey as a terminal even after the Penn Stations in New York, New York and Newark, New Jersey were opened, and Manhattan Transfer, New Jersey was opened and later closed. The Hudson & Manhattan provided local service between the same points that the PRR provided express service. Also, PRR continued to run ferries over more than 1 route from Exchange Place, to New York City piers that weren't near tube stations.
I'm sure that many of the passengers at Exchange Place were commuters who didn't want to change at Manhattan Transfer and stop at Journal Square and Grove St. The builders thought that there would be enough of them that a pocket track was made West of Exchange Place for shuttle trains to Hudson Terminal!

[JimBoylan]

I was told that H&M planned a second set of tunnels running south from the junction near the Hoboken station to the junction of the lines to WTC and Journal Square/Newark.

o At Hudson Terminal, provisions for 2 additional tunnels. Bellmouths built (and subsequently demolished) and short sections of tunnel along side F track and under E track, still there but sealed off.
o The previous 2 tunnels would have gone directly to Pavonia from Hudson Terminal. Provisions at the junction north of Pavonia for these, with the usual signal shed and power gear blocking the opening.
I think that last one is what you're referring to. Look at the 2 tunnels on the bottom right of this picture and you'll see how it would have worked.

The link seems to be for a system that would have had a simpler junction West of Exchange Place, as the "Newark and Jersey City" routes do not also say "Hudson Terminal".
Thanks for explaining all of this.

[Terry Kennedy]

The PRR continued to use Exchange Place, New Jersey as a terminal even after the Penn Stations in New York, New York and Newark, New Jersey were opened, and Manhattan Transfer, New Jersey was opened and later closed. The Hudson & Manhattan provided local service between the same points that the PRR provided express service. Also, PRR continued to run ferries over more than 1 route from Exchange Place, to New York City piers that weren't near tube stations.
I'm sure that many of the passengers at Exchange Place were commuters who didn't want to change at Manhattan Transfer and stop at Journal Square and Grove St. The builders thought that there would be enough of them that a pocket track was made West of Exchange Place for shuttle trains to Hudson Terminal!

Quite true. There's a tradeoff in terms of time spent, fares paid, waiting for connections, and so on. Particularly during the early decades of the H&M's operation, they operated on a "The Public Be Pleased" motto, compared to something unprintable for the public by some of the other railroad lines. The H&M arranged for weatherproof staircases from the Manhattan El to the H&M Christopher Street station. Hudson Terminal had underground walkways to connect with the city's subway company lines. And, of course, the H&M tokens are made from melted-down IRT tokens they got in a sweetheart deal.

I was told that H&M planned a second set of tunnels running south from the junction near the Hoboken station to the junction of the lines to WTC and Journal Square/Newark.

I think that last one is what you're referring to. Look at the 2 tunnels on the bottom right of this picture and you'll see how it would have worked.

The link seems to be for a system that would have had a simpler junction West of Exchange Place, as the "Newark and Jersey City" routes do not also say "Hudson Terminal".
Thanks for explaining all of this.

This is one of those illustrations with a complex history. The actual artwork was done by some illustrator for Scribner's Magazine based on the description they got from the H&M, then the H&M incorporated it into their commemorative dinner souvenir book, and it was eventually reworked again and colorized to create a postcard.

In some cases (not this one, unfortunately) I can compare the original linen drawing or glass negative in my collection to published materials, to see what was changed or misunderstood when creating an article for a less-technical audience. For example, I have Haskin's original full plan and profile drawing (it is over 30 feet long, since it shows the whole tunnel from end to end, using a 1" = 20' scale) which he loaned to Burr for the book he wrote about the project. If you're interested, pictures of it are here and here. Caution - 2500-pixel-wide images.

Posting these things here always reminds me that I need to create a virtual museum exhibit with all of that material. Somehow, I never seem to have the time, so it only shows up in short pieces to answer people's questions here.

[erie910]

I commuted on the Tubes off-and-on between 1966 and 1970, and steadily from 1970-mid-1973. When I was a kid, my Dad would take us to New York occasionally by train, and we would take the Tubes from the Erie terminal to 33rd St. When I left in 1973, and when I rode for my last time in early 2001, the NJ stations were Hoboken, Pavonia, Grove-Henderson, Exchange Place, Journal Square, Harrison, & Newark. The Exchange Place station has been confirmed as the location of the former Pennsy terminal. Was Grove-Henderson where the CNJ terminated?

What is at either of these locations now which continues to warrant a station? In the late 1970's and 1980's, there was an exodus of company offices from New York to New Jersey. Are either Exchange Place or Grove-Henderson near any office complexes which now host companies which fled NYC?