Danbury Branch - History, Electrification, Studies

[DutchRailnut]

My estimate for electrification based on re-electrification of New Canaan, was that it would cost in excess of $200 million for Danbury as it is today, not including the extra MU's that would need to be bought at 3.1 million American pesos a car ( at least 35 needed)

[NH2060]

There're a lot of things we'll see before the Danbury Branch gets even bases for the cat poles

Speaking of which why were the original NH poles never removed?

[DutchRailnut]

it cost money,so why are poles no longer usable, bases are disintegrating and all support rods are long gone, each pole use to have 1 or 2 guy rods holding pole from tipping.

[Ridgefielder]

There're a lot of things we'll see before the Danbury Branch gets even bases for the cat poles

Speaking of which why were the original NH poles never removed?

Too expensive to cut them out of the concrete bases, I guess. Plus in places- like here, https://goo.gl/maps/PSk1B along the Simpaug Turnpike in Redding- they're used to support a communications line for (I think) AT&T

[NH2060]

Extension of passenger service to even beyond New Milford apparently getting serious consideration (with fair use quote):
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Gov. Dannel P. Malloy is expected this week to unveil his new transportation strategy that will call for major infrastructure improvements, and state lawmakers anxious to have expanded passenger service in the region have clamored to offer several bills that would study and move forward such propositions. The proposed legislation calls for passenger service to be expanded to New Milford or farther north to Canaan.

Colin Pease of HRRC's words/claims aside perhaps it isn't that far fetched of an idea to have service go up somewhat farther north (Kent, etc.) after all. But those claims of operating at a profit are just laughable. I'm sure no one at CDOT believes it.

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

Everything further north of New Milford is a close drive to the Harlem Line for a trip into GCT way faster than the Berkshire Line. Starting at HM Valley-Wingdale station no town on the US 7 corridor in CT from the very elongated northernmost rural section of New Milford through Cornwall and Sharon is more than 10 miles from an Upper Harlem station. If it ever went back to Millerton the same could be said for Salisbury, North Caanan, and all points right up to the MA border. There's no there there for going further north than downtown New Milford and the northern extent of the Route 7 commute of pain.

All the studies have confirmed this, so despite what some exciteable Litchfield County legislators and Colin Pease's stenographers seem to think there's no persuasion to be had with CDOT or Malloy over this. They know the score. That's why none of them met with MA Gov. Patrick in North Caanan when he chartered his MBTA choo-choo to announce his Berkshire Line plan.


That said, Brookfield + New Milford is about as dead-obvious an extension as it gets. Easily the #2 priority in the state after NHHS. That was never really in question. But north of there is what it is...the Upper Harlem is going to be a faster commute 10 times out of 10 even if you live near one of these prospective Berkshire Line stations.

[NH2060]

True, but that leaves out SE Westchester, Greenwich-Stamford-Norwalk, Danbury, etc. I think it's fair to suggest that a good number of Danbury Branch riders are NOT going as far as GCT. So an extension wouldn't be necessarily attracting potential GCT riders, but those going to/from again Greenwich-Stamford-Norwalk-Route 7 corridor and maybe even just Danbury.

If Millerton ever became a reality no doubt that would attract a fair number of would-be GCT riders from those parts and they would take the Harlem Line regardless. I would do so myself. But once again that still leaves the SE Westchester/Fairfield County demographic which is not a niche market by any means so if there's enough of a market for non-GCT, intra-CT ridership that's enough of a reason to take it as far north as reasonably possible. Canaan is indeed a stretch though, even for a CapeFLYER-type summer only train.

[The EGE]

After the state inevitably kicks HRRC off or buys them out, Kent might be worthwhile for a very small number of trains (perhaps even one morning and one afternoon round trip). The line is going to need trackwork to make it freight-worthy anyway; might as well make up to Kent viable for minimum passenger service. Kent itself doesn't have a good route to the Harlem Line, and even minimum service would go a long way to make the politicians there happy with MNRR.

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

But what's the total patronage going to be? Really...those are some small, small villages. North Caanan the largest by a longshot at slightly over 3000 people. Nevermind Westchester...Dutchess County is comparably a lot denser than Litchfield County. Even New Milford is a weird case because it's so geographically large and hyper-extended in a north-south direction and the population density so concentrated to the extreme-south downtown; the whole northern extent up to the Kent town line is vast empty space. And it's diluted destination points. Some rural residents work rural and commute east-west on empty roads (US 44, CT 63, CT 4, etc.). And then the ones that do need a New York commute can/do and will-forever drive to the far faster and more frequent Harlem Line stations because each downtown pocket along US 7 has those east-west crossroads with a relatively easy shot to an Upper Harlem station.

And it's a long, long schedule for those who do need the north-south commute. Danbury-Stamford is already an hour on the schedule for 9 stops and 30 miles on mostly slow track. New Milford is +2 stops (maybe +3 if public sentiment makes up its mind and swings back in favor of a North Danbury spacer) on +13 track miles. But at least it's a relatively straight track and wide station spacing that'll approach 60 MPH track speed between stops. New Milford-Kent is +12 more track miles for 1 station on the curviest-by-far portion of the Berkshire Line in CT. At the point where both it and the Upper Harlem converge closest to the state line. That schedule's going to be excruciating. You could probably meet or beat time into Stamford from New Britain via commuter rail on the Highland + an upgraded Waterbury Branch than you could from Kent via the Danbury Branch. And if there's any substantial station parking to be had in New Milford, then you're going to get lots of people simply driving down the uncongested parts of US 7 and US 202 to board there where car + train time is a wash, there's more to do/eat around the station, and likely a whole lot more New Milford-terminating trains to choose from than would be poking north into the sticks. It's fighting to a draw at best, and this is why CDOT already knows the score.


I just don't know how north of New Milford is going to collectively generate more than a couple hundred total riders per day who need the north-south orientation above all else and are willing to put up with the schedule compromises when the 'fighting to a draw' options like a drive to downtown New Milford or the Upper Harlem are taken into account. You are already dividing the very small pie to begin with targeting Litchfield County north of the US 7/US 202 split. The piece of the demand pie this would serve probably doesn't even make up a plurality of the total demand when the 'good enough' trade-offs of longer park-and-ride drive for better schedule options are taken into account.



It's too bad Wassaic-Millerton has no funding conduit that takes into account the likely CT patronage. It would settle up nearly all the demand worth settling up on the US 7 corridor, and if it weren't for the matter of only one state being able to pay for it that probably would've been enough to make it happen by now.

[Steamboat Willie]

I was told that making a station near the old Brookfield station was not fesible due to the parking lot arrangement. It would make sense to have some sort of station where the Berkshire Corperate offices are on White Turkey Rd just off the Federal Rd exit on Route 7. You have all major connecting roads near by (Federal Rd, Rte 7, Candlewood Lake Rd.)

[DutchRailnut]

the only place in brookfield were a station and parking could be arranged id opposite fire dept and near post office.
But again don't hold your breath as cast is a lot higher than people say including several bridges that would need to be totally redone.

[TCurtin]

I've written this post before, several times. Re-electrifying to Danbury will NOT, repeat NOT, improve the operation one twit above what is accomplished today with the present equipment. Believe me , I remember and rode under, the NH's electrification in the 50s. Get yourself a NH timetable from the 50s and you will see what I mean. The track improvement, and now the TCS, have accomplished a great deal. So please stop pushing electrification!!!!! It ain't worth it.

BTW, they really do need to improve one thing which I doubt is very difficult: get rid of the extreme speed restriction between Danbury station and south of Shelter Rock Rd. crossing. It was never that way before and doesn't need to be now. It's terrible. Probably the solution is to make the crossing circuits longer.

[MattW]

Perhaps the point of electrification isn't to improve speeds, wouldn't it improve consist rotation flexibility by not having to worry about fueling? Wouldn't it improve storage space by not having what is basically a non-revenue car that has to have room (the locomotive)? Improve maintenance by being able to confine the oddball fleet to fewer routes? Then there's the environmental aspects, pollution, noise, etc. Why the resistance to electrification? If CDOT wants to fund it, let them. Better get something for the railroad that at least won't hinder performance, than nothing at all right? If that's the choice anyways. If there was serious competition between funding Danbury electrification or funding, say, the NHHS, then sure, I personally would pick the NHHS, but if this money would otherwise not go to rail at all, then why not?

[NH2060]

With all those trees along the ROW one bad enough storm/strong enough wind and you've got problems. It can be enough of a problem on the New Canaan Branch as it is, but with it's <8 mile length it's at least somewhat manageable. At 25 miles the Danbury Branch would be more problematic just because there is that much more trackside forest to contend with. And don't even think about a third rail as CT banned the use of third rails in the late 1890s/early 1900s.

Even if that weren't an issue there aren't enough M-8s to go around just for the New Haven Line (including the cars earmarked for SLE) so electrification would require another batch of cars to add to the pool.

In short, a lot of $$$ for little if not zero advantage. The money would be better spent on the New Milford extension, additional sidings on the Waterbury Branch, Waterbury-Hartford commuter rail, more NHHS upgrades (that aren't electrification), etc. If the branch had 20+ round trips per day diesels would still be better.

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

Yep. This is feel-good cosmetics and little more. It's zero performance benefit, zero operational benefit, too few daily trains for equipment rotation or pollution to have any discernible effect, and too few additional schedules that can possibly be crammed up the New Haven Line to Danbury that would move the needle on any of this.

And mind you, CDOT diesel ops are not going to be shrinking. Not by a longshot. It's probably a quarter-billion's worth of grade crossing eliminations to ratchet up the Springfield Line's performance through elimination of slow zones enough to make wires and EMU's on NHHS make any difference in the world. It'll easily be over 35 trips per day by the time they eat their peas on all that necessary busywork. And those proposed MassDOT trains to the north-of-Springfield I-91 'burbs which would make such a nice Hartford-terminating run if Massachusetts pooled resources with CDOT will forever be diesel even if the line south of Springfield is electrified, because of the protected 19'6" freight clearances on the Conn River Line. Then you've got Hartford-Waterbury, and all the run-thru options from there onto the Waterbury Branch which will be a substantial grower if they ever find the funding to do it.

And we're not even in foamer land yet or talking deep long-term prospects like:
-- The Manchester Secondary (on the spectrum from short Manchester/I-84/Buckland Hills shuttles to more expansive Willimantic reconnection and full-on Hartford-Mohegan Sun-New London commuter rail)
-- Griffins Secondary shuttles to the dense residential swath of western Hartford, Bloomfield, and the airport (i.e. a RR rehash of the old "just around the corner" light rail plan that Federal Inmate Rowland killed in the late-90's)
-- New London-Worcester regional rail
-- ...and, yes, maybe someday a sensible dose of right-sized service befitting those Berkshire Line villages.


CDOT's going to be making a couple more 25-year diesel push-pull procurement cycles each bigger than the last. And they will each be bigger than the last even if the Springfield Line gets its wires and fleet of M12's while we're still alive to see it, because there is just that much expansion territory of plausible-or-better upside to be had over the next 30-50 years. Diesel will never be an "outlier" fleet in Connecticut. In fact, we're probably counting down the last 24 months where it will even be as rare a sight as it is now.