Metro North WOH Rail Options Using the Tappan Zee Bridge TZB

[N4J]

Rail; failing in this region? Are you kidding me , and since it would feed into GCT the likely hood of it failing is very low.... Without the Rail we cannot have an Airport Express line to Stewart Airport although we could build one from Hoboken....Stewart is one the Airports in this region that will be expanded to curve the crush of Flights to LGA , JFK , and EWR which are at or over capacity. What happened to the PPP's who were willing to pay for the Rail? Why did NYS silence them?

[Tommy Meehan]

Especially when the commuter rail wouldn't save any time for people trying to commute to NYC.

The BRT and the CRT they are talking about is primarily to serve the Rockland-Westchester I-287 corridor not for commutation to NY City.

[SecaucusJunction]

Yes, I am aware of that but the biggest portion of the riders will still go to NYC (with a phanton connection to the Hudson Line). If that was going to really make their commute shorter and easier, it would be a bigger help for the project... but it won't. Putting a commuter rail line across Westchester would be a costly disaster. Ridership would be very low and no where near a justification of building a costly route. Any commuter rail in the area needs to go to NYC. Light Rail or BRT would be a more viable option for the lower ridership of other routes.

[Tommy Meehan]

...the biggest portion of the riders will still go to NYC...Putting a commuter rail line across Westchester would be a costly disaster. Ridership would be very low and no where near a justification of building a costly route. Any commuter rail in the area needs to go to NYC.

Okay that's your opinion but I think a lot of your assumptions are wrong.

The fact is the majority of traffic (I think about 80%) across the Tappan Zee bridge is not going to Manhattan. And probably as many Rockland commuters work in Westchester as work in Manhattan.

And currently all the impetus is for Rockland-Westchester service. None of the people involved in this even mention getting to Grand Central.

The projections for the I-287 corridor is about 5,000-10,000 trips per day to start (for rail, BRT is lower) but I don't recall seeing projections for Rockland-GCT ridership.

Secaucus you yourself have written that the GCT routing wouldn't save the riders any time. IMHO that might be the disaster. Routing service via the Hudson Line to an at-capacity GCT via a hugely expensive ramp and tunnel. And for how many riders?

[njtmnrrbuff]

There are plenty of suburban office parks, as well as other commercial facilities, such as malls, that are very close to the joint I-87, and 287 corridor. Whatever runs on the new Tappan Zee Bridge, whether if it's rail or bus, it would be meant for suburb to suburb travelling, along 287.

The way the NJT lines that serve NY State are laid out, in relation to NYC, are that they pretty much run in a north-west orientation, with some south-west orientations too. Building an elevated loop from let's say a proposed Trans-Tappan Zee Bridge to MNR's Hudson Line would not only be really expensive, but probably would add a lot of time to the schedule.

What I'm trying to say in the second paragraph is that it would take just as much time, if not, faster, for a resident who, let's say lives in Suffern to reach GCT via NJT and two subways, rather than take a proposed train to GCT from Suffern. On a Metro North Express train from Suffern to NYP, including the transfer at SEC, it takes 50 minutes. For a person to travel from NYP to GCT via subway, it would take five to ten minutes. If let's say a person grabs a local train from Suffern, that would take about an hour and a quarter, to NYP counting the transfer at SEC.

[Tommy Meehan]

If you read the planning documents, the studies indicate the cross-county line would have decent ridership to start with. But more important is the future.

The (hopefully) commuter rail line would be a powerful inducement for developers to locate their projects in the corridor instead of scattering them all over the place in the quest to find areas where the traffic isn't too bad.

It's about what Rockland and Westchester will look like in 2060. And that is, IMHO, exactly what local government should be thinking about and acting on.

And to their credit they are.

[N4J]

Yes, I am aware of that but the biggest portion of the riders will still go to NYC (with a phanton connection to the Hudson Line). If that was going to really make their commute shorter and easier, it would be a bigger help for the project... but it won't. Putting a commuter rail line across Westchester would be a costly disaster. Ridership would be very low and no where near a justification of building a costly route. Any commuter rail in the area needs to go to NYC. Light Rail or BRT would be a more viable option for the lower ridership of other routes.

How would Ridership be low if over 300,000 people work along the corridor in Westchester mainly in White Plains and Elmsford. Most of the 300,000 people come from Rockland or Fairfield Counties.... So if there were a cross county commuter line it would probably get at least 70,000 daily users , even a branch off the New Haven line from Port Chester would do alot. BRT isn't the answer neither is Light Rail which is better suited for a few North - South corridors in Westchester.... Not everyone works in NYC ,the other large Urban centers in this Region such as New Brunswick , Newark , Jersey City , Stamford , & New Haven employ over 1.4 Million people.... Those Cities and Urban Hubs deserve to be connected aswell and by connecting these Urban centers Ridership across the board jumps by a few thousand. If the state can't build it , then let Private investors do it , the state is silencing them for what ever reason.

[SecaucusJunction]

Remember, just because there is rail to a certain area such as White Plains, doesnt mean that people will actually use it. Facing facts, people like the convenience of their cars in the United States and especially in this area. They'll use them to get anywhere except working in NYC. Nevertheless, we can argue this all day, the fact is that CRT is now officially dead unless Rockland and Westchester can find some way to come up with several billions of dollars by themselves.

If you are thinking ahead 50 years, the arguement could also be made that the debt from projects like this could severely affect the area and state in a very negative way so that the effects would be much worse than using cheaper alternatives right now that also do the job.

[N4J]

Remember, just because there is rail to a certain area such as White Plains, doesnt mean that people will actually use it. Facing facts, people like the convenience of their cars in the United States and especially in this area. They'll use them to get anywhere except working in NYC. Nevertheless, we can argue this all day, the fact is that CRT is now officially dead unless Rockland and Westchester can find some way to come up with several billions of dollars by themselves.

If you are thinking ahead 50 years, the arguement could also be made that the debt from projects like this could severely affect the area and state in a very negative way so that the effects would be much worse than using cheaper alternatives right now that also do the job.

Why wouldn't they use it? Traffic crawls on 95/287 given a chance to have a stress free commute to work many people would take it. The Northeast is dense and has very high transit ridership , If people have access to it they will use it and the more its connected the more people will use it. 50 years from now this regions population will be 80 Million where will all those drivers go? I doubt the line itself will cost several billion , it seems whenever a politcain or agency doesn't like a certain project the price inflates for no real reason. Your not looking at the big picture here and not looking at whats best for this region.... Look at Urban Jersey most people commute there by Public Transit...not the car....so with more connections White Plains can be the same it already has an estimated 50,000 daily Bus / Rail trips to its core...if Rail was built to Fairfield county which is where the majority of WP commuters come from I think we can get that number up to 120,000 or more... Theres only 20-30,000 Rockland commuters commuting to Elmsford or WP.

The car Centric society of this region never really developed , people have no choice but to use a car in parts of this region due to the badly built or lack of expansion in the Transit system. The Bus system currently fills the void in the Rail system but thats at Capacity and a cheap fix is out of the question... Rail is the only choice left.... CRT is not official dead , its just on the backburner....nothing is every dead in the NYC region whether its a Rail project or building its often built later and watered down but still built.... The amount of TOD that would come with the Transit part of the project would be enough to reduce or Eliminate the debt with New Tax revenue... Highways do not bring the amount of suburban Expansion as they used to....

[Tommy Meehan]

Why wouldn't they use it?....

These types of regional commuter services are successful all over the world. In the United States they have been difficult to build because they're difficult to fund because of all the people who are adamantly opposed to them (such as our friend above).

All the new starts have been opposed by people who insist they'll be "disasters, the HBLR, the RIVERLine, TRE etc etc etc. If many railfans oppose these kinds of projects just imagine the resistance they encounter from the general public!

Nevertheless, we can argue this all day, the fact is that CRT is now officially dead unless Rockland and Westchester can find some way to come up with several billions of dollars by themselves.

Secaucus finally we agree on something!

[N4J]

Why wouldn't they use it?....

These types of regional commuter services are successful all over the world. In the United States they have been difficult to build because they're difficult to fund because of all the people who are adamantly opposed to them (such as our friend above).

All the new starts have been opposed by people who insist they'll be "disasters, the HBLR, the RIVERLine, TRE etc etc etc. If many railfans oppose these kinds of projects just imagine the resistance they encounter from the general public!

Nevertheless, we can argue this all day, the fact is that CRT is now officially dead unless Rockland and Westchester can find some way to come up with several billions of dollars by themselves.

Secaucus finally we agree on something!

But once in place they prove successful and spur massive redevelopments and generate millions in New Tax Revenue and people warm to them and want expansion. I haven't found any Rail fan or Transit advocate against adding Rail in the future , maybe a delay of 15 years max but build it one day. They all agree the Ridership and population are there to support both lines. FYI the Riverline is touching the 11,000 daily ridership mark which is very good considering the limited Job market it services...and the Hudson Bergen LRT is nearing 50,000 mark with the Bayfront , Northern Branch and various infill projects putting that at 130,000 later this decade. The TRE has archived more then predicted even with a mostly Auto-centric region.

[Jeff Smith]

This isn't an MTA or MNRR proposal, so I'm stashing some alternatives in this thread: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 28&t=90719 for discussion there.

[SecaucusJunction]

News on the Tappan Zee Bridge. Construction could start as early as August if this Federal Loan gets approved... it would go forward with no mass transit, not even a bus corridor.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-1 ... ridge.html

[Clean Cab]

What a waste if it doesn't include a rail connector. How much more could it cost?

[SecaucusJunction]

Probably quite a lot since it also consists of building track across the county to get there.