Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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Swedish Meatball
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Post by Swedish Meatball » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:12 am

Was there not also a study to bring LIRR into the new WTC. If that was the case then I could see spots freeing up. I assume NJT would get those before anyone else. Having MNRR or anyone else run on the Hellgate and making a Co-Op City makes to much sense therefore it will never become a reality. :wink:

Nester
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Location: Beacon NY US

Post by Nester » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:14 am

DutchRailnut wrote:ESA will not free up spots in Penn station, the ESA project will add trains going to Manhattan and may free up spots for LIRR to run more Dual modes into Penn station.
LIRR never stated they would run less trains into Penn station.
If slots were to become available in Penn station the first right of refusal goes to NJT.
The slots into Penn station are owned by Amtrak and assigned to LIRR, MTA does not own the slots.
Are you certain that there is enough capacity to run additional LIRR trains into Penn? I've been told by more than one person that the Harold-Jay corridor runs at darn close to capacity already, and that most trains that will go to GCT are diverted Penn trains (no dual modes since they won't fit in the 63rd St tunnel)

Besides, part of the original spec for the DE's was that they would have the same acceleration and braking capabilities as the current M-fleet, as to not blow slots. This was one of the biggest reasons they did not go with the P32ACDM (according to the IG). Clearly they don't work as well as promised, and require a bigger "slot" to enter and leave NYP.

Nester

Nester
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Post by Nester » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:21 am

Swedish Meatball wrote:Was there not also a study to bring LIRR into the new WTC. If that was the case then I could see spots freeing up. I assume NJT would get those before anyone else. Having MNRR or anyone else run on the Hellgate and making a Co-Op City makes to much sense therefore it will never become a reality. :wink:
There were a number of so-called studies that suggested that the LIRR could run in under-utilized NYCTA tunnels and gain access to lower Manhattan. None of these agencies know who the FRA is or what crash-worthiness is and why none of this nonsense would ever work.

You'll probably see MN in downtown Manhattan before the LIRR at this point -- since the LIRR terminal tracks are on the same "plane" as the IRT, and there's a concourse underneath and a new shopping center and office complex above, you would need to do some fairly extensive tunneling to even open up a path for the LIRR to reach lower Manhattan from Atlantic Avenue.

Nester

MNRR_RTC
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Post by MNRR_RTC » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:26 am

When I worked for Amtrak as a train dispatcher in New York, I remember the PSCC guys saying that they move over 1300 trains a day. Even with the Westside and Sunnysides yards, there were still about 90 second headways during the rush. If a train died in one of the tubes, the rush hour pretty much went down the toilet. I can't see any more trains being added to Penn until they figured out how to deal with the capacity issue. Sending LIRR trains to GCT will help out alot and it certainly make my commute to work easier. BTW, I see the construction in Woodside for the ESA in full swing along the BQE. They already have bridges for the railroad in place and the track work is going at a phenominal pace.
"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd."-Jules, "Pulp Fiction"

NJD8598
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Location: Stamford, CT

Post by NJD8598 » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:32 am

RPM2Night wrote:
RedSoxSuck wrote:There is also a tiny little 3rd rail issue to overcome.....
Does the LIRR and MNRR use different 3rd rail formats?
Yes LIRR uses third rail shoes that run over the third rail, while Metro North's run under.

Noel Weaver
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Location: Pompano Beach, Florida

ETC

Post by Noel Weaver » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:25 am

The issue of Metro-North running into Penn Station has been discussed,
discussed and discussed some more on here previously.
It has been explained in detail just why this will not happen anytime soon.
To make it plain, there is NO ROOM AT THE INN for Metro-North trains.
Noel Weaver

mkm4
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:14 pm

Post by mkm4 » Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:01 pm

Nester wrote: Are you certain that there is enough capacity to run additional LIRR trains into Penn? I've been told by more than one person that the Harold-Jay corridor runs at darn close to capacity already, and that most trains that will go to GCT are diverted Penn trains (no dual modes since they won't fit in the 63rd St tunnel)
It's the tunnels that are at capacity.

RedSoxSuck
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Location: New York

Re: ETC

Post by RedSoxSuck » Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:50 am

Noel Weaver wrote:The issue of Metro-North running into Penn Station has been discussed,
discussed and discussed some more on here previously.
It has been explained in detail just why this will not happen anytime soon.
To make it plain, there is NO ROOM AT THE INN for Metro-North trains.
Noel Weaver
Exactly. But that fact wont stop people from becoming "enlightened" here and believeing there are some sort of transportation messiah.....

jlr3266
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:32 am

Post by jlr3266 » Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:54 am

Amtrak has been holding meetings with MN about this issue recently, and ESA has studied modifications to Harold to make this work. The fact that there is no space in NYP seems to be a secondary concern to the study.

It is most likely political BS to convince people off the Island that ESA is good for everyone.

timz
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Location: Oakland CA

Post by timz » Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:49 am

MNRR_RTC wrote:BTW, I see the construction in Woodside for the ESA in full swing along the BQE. They already have bridges for the railroad in place and the track work is going at a phenominal pace.
Bridges over what?

MNRR_RTC
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Location: Inside of The Lament Configuration

Post by MNRR_RTC » Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:12 pm

Along Broadway in Woodside, there is a railroad bridge along the BQE and I believe I saw one in Astoria near Amtrak's overpass. Next time I drive through the area, I will get better directions to them.
"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd."-Jules, "Pulp Fiction"

MN Jim

Post by MN Jim » Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:36 pm

That line is the CSX line from the Hell Gate to Fresh Pond (the former NHRR Bay Ridge Branch). The construction noted by "Timz" is not for East Side Access, but for a BQE improvement project. East Side Access will not go anywhere near that location. It will leave the LIRR main line at Harold, make a station stop at Queens Blvd (by Sunnyside Yard) and then duck into the tunnels under the East River. There won't be any bridges built for ESA, only tunnels.

Jim

MNRR_RTC
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Post by MNRR_RTC » Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:25 pm

Hey Jim, I saw that they were adding a second trk there. I thought that they were adding the extra trks for the ESA. Same thing with the elevated bridge along Broadway. Hopefully, if I run into you at work, you can clarify the info for me. Thanks Jim.
"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd."-Jules, "Pulp Fiction"

MN Jim

Post by MN Jim » Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:31 pm

I think they're just building a new right-of-way, and once the new track is complete, swing the old alignment over to the new alignment. This page on the NYSDOT web site describes the project in pretty good detail.

I'll never understand how CSX got the state to agree to build a massive, two-track bridge structure over Northern Boulevard as part of this project. It's a single-track line that sees at most 4 trains a day. Millions were stolen from the taxpayers, in my opinion. I just don't get it.

But anyway, back to Penn Station Access - before I get the standard "keep it on topic" reprimand....

Jim

jlr3266
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Post by jlr3266 » Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:02 am

There will be bridges built for ESA, mainly at 43rd St right after Harold, but nothing is going on now.

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