Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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DutchRailnut
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Post by DutchRailnut » Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:50 pm

Pierce there are no plans for LIRR to vacate any slots. even if they did NJT would be getting those way before MNCR.
The GCT service will just open up slots opposite the UN building accros the river.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer. I am not a moderator.

Penn Central
Posts: 467
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:19 pm

Post by Penn Central » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:18 am

DutchRailnut wrote:Pierce there are no plans for LIRR to vacate any slots. even if they did NJT would be getting those way before MNCR.
The GCT service will just open up slots opposite the UN building accros the river.
Sorry, Jaap, but NJT could not take any more slots even if they wanted to until signals are updated in the Hudson River tunnel (2 tracks only). That's why my local politicians are looking at bilevels for the Midtown Express service. During peak hours, they are at capacity now. I wonder if my NYP and Sunnside qualifications are still good????

Noel Weaver
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Location: Pompano Beach, Florida

Post by Noel Weaver » Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:49 pm

Penn Central wrote:
DutchRailnut wrote:Pierce there are no plans for LIRR to vacate any slots. even if they did NJT would be getting those way before MNCR.
The GCT service will just open up slots opposite the UN building accros the river.
Sorry, Jaap, but NJT could not take any more slots even if they wanted to until signals are updated in the Hudson River tunnel (2 tracks only). That's why my local politicians are looking at bilevels for the Midtown Express service. During peak hours, they are at capacity now. I wonder if my NYP and Sunnside qualifications are still good????
Hey!!, I wonder if mine are too? Penn, GCT, Sunnyside and more. It's
been a while.
Remember when we hit the tire on Highland hill, the Mig was in the hack?
Noel Weaver

Penn Central
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Post by Penn Central » Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:58 am

Noel Weaver wrote:Remember when we hit the tire on Highland hill, the Mig was in the hack?
Noel Weaver
That was over 30 years ago, Noel, but I remember. Mig never wanted to make it over the road. Whenever it looked like you would complete a northbound trip there was a suspicious air leak coming from the caboose. Those wonderful Penn Central days :wink:

Did you qualify in Penn with Francis Meaney?

Noel Weaver
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Location: Pompano Beach, Florida

Post by Noel Weaver » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:35 am

Penn Central wrote:
Noel Weaver wrote:Remember when we hit the tire on Highland hill, the Mig was in the hack?
Noel Weaver
That was over 30 years ago, Noel, but I remember. Mig never wanted to make it over the road. Whenever it looked like you would complete a northbound trip there was a suspicious air leak coming from the caboose. Those wonderful Penn Central days :wink:

Did you qualify in Penn with Francis Meaney?
Sure did, one swell guy. I always walked out of there with a bag full of
timetables too. Still got the timetables.
Noel Weaver

Jondude11

Post by Jondude11 » Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:58 am

Hi, I'm new to the boards, my name is Jon. I have a question though: What's the purpose of bringing Metro-North trains into Penn Station? Isn't Penn Station crowded enough? If anything, I think more trains should be brought into Grand Central if possible (I know LIRR is thinking of bringing some trains there). It's sad that Metro-North is the only railroad that gets to use such a beautiful station.

Noel Weaver
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Location: Pompano Beach, Florida

Post by Noel Weaver » Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:47 am

Jondude11 wrote:Hi, I'm new to the boards, my name is Jon. I have a question though: What's the purpose of bringing Metro-North trains into Penn Station? Isn't Penn Station crowded enough? If anything, I think more trains should be brought into Grand Central if possible (I know LIRR is thinking of bringing some trains there). It's sad that Metro-North is the only railroad that gets to use such a beautiful station.
Amtrak has been out of Grand Central for over ten years now and they
are far better off with all of their service under the same roof. For a
person traveling to New York out of Albany, it is now a simple matter to
change for Philadelphia, Washington, all of New Jersey, all of Long
Island and the corridor route to Boston. Before that change, it was a
miserable subway transfer especially if you had baggage and it even
required a change of subway trains. Amtrak service improved greatly
when the Empire Corridor trains were switched to Penn Station.
Amtrak passengers coming down from Albany etc can easily change at
either Croton-Harmon or Yonkers to Metro-North trains for Grand Central
if they need to go there.
Noel Weaver

Penn Central
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Post by Penn Central » Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:40 am

Jondude11 wrote:Hi, I'm new to the boards, my name is Jon. I have a question though: What's the purpose of bringing Metro-North trains into Penn Station? Isn't Penn Station crowded enough? If anything, I think more trains should be brought into Grand Central if possible (I know LIRR is thinking of bringing some trains there). It's sad that Metro-North is the only railroad that gets to use such a beautiful station.
Bringing the LIRR to GCT is a priority for the MTA with the East Side Access Project. You can read more about that here:

http://schumer.senate.gov/SchumerWebsit ... 12204.html

Will Metro-North gain access to Penn? Probably not. The current tennants, Amtrak, LIRR and NJT need the space that will be vacated by the LIRR trains that are diverted to GCT in 2011 if the project stays on schedule. As Noel pointed out, there is no point in bringing Amtrak back to GCT when connections can be made in all directions with the current service.

I remember getting searched by two men in suits after running one of my first trains into Penn as an engineer in 1976. Why? Jimmy Carter was there conducting his successful campain to become the 39th president. He was shaking hands of passengers as they came up the stairs off the platform and the secret service was checking people out before they got near him.

Jondude11

Post by Jondude11 » Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:17 pm

Noel Weaver wrote: Amtrak has been out of Grand Central for over ten years now and they
are far better off with all of their service under the same roof. For a
person traveling to New York out of Albany, it is now a simple matter to
change for Philadelphia, Washington, all of New Jersey, all of Long
Island and the corridor route to Boston. Before that change, it was a
miserable subway transfer especially if you had baggage and it even
required a change of subway trains. Amtrak service improved greatly
when the Empire Corridor trains were switched to Penn Station.
Amtrak passengers coming down from Albany etc can easily change at
either Croton-Harmon or Yonkers to Metro-North trains for Grand Central
if they need to go there.
Noel Weaver
Yes, of course, but it wouldn't benefit Metro-North. It was easier for Amtrak to make a northern passage out of Penn Station rather than trying to make a west passage out of Grand Central.

RedSoxSuck
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Location: New York

Post by RedSoxSuck » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:06 pm

Mr Met wrote:there is overhead wires from hellgate into penn os M-2 M-4 M-6's can run off those
Yes, they can be powered by the wire, but the 3rd rail shoes are not retractable and, therefore, would still strike the LIRR 3rd rail and most likely be torn off. Also, there is no place to store M2/4/6s during the day, even if retractable 3rd rail shoes are installed, as West side yard does not have catenary. The only place I can think of that would work would be if NJT has a yard with space to rent in NJ.

RedSoxSuck
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Location: New York

Post by RedSoxSuck » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:47 pm

What many people at this forum, as well as others, do not seem to realize is that ESA is NOT for luxury, but for necessity. If more space was available at NYP, I PROMISE you that LIRR would just use that.

LIRR is currently running at (if not over) capacity into NYP, and simply NEEDS more space.

MNR has all of the space it needs at the present time and forseeable future at GCT and therefore another terminal would be merely a luxury.

I will concede that I am not always able to do this in many situations, but you need to realize that there is a differency between a necessity and a luxury. LIRR to GCT is a necessity. GCT to NYP is a luxury. Accept this fact.

Jondude11

Post by Jondude11 » Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:12 pm

RedSoxSuck wrote:What many people at this forum, as well as others, do not seem to realize is that ESA is NOT for luxury, but for necessity. If more space was available at NYP, I PROMISE you that LIRR would just use that.

LIRR is currently running at (if not over) capacity into NYP, and simply NEEDS more space.

MNR has all of the space it needs at the present time and forseeable future at GCT and therefore another terminal would be merely a luxury.

I will concede that I am not always able to do this in many situations, but you need to realize that there is a differency between a necessity and a luxury. LIRR to GCT is a necessity. GCT to NYP is a luxury. Accept this fact.
Precisely why I was confused about Metro-North to Penn Station. I mean it would be nice, but it's not necessary. I think if anything, way back when Amtrak planners should have tried to figure out some way to get trains from New Jersey into Grand Central rather than getting trains from Penn Station to north of the city. Grand Central is a much nicer way for tourists to be greeted to the city. But of course, nothing can be done about that now.

How close is MTA definite to bringing some LIRR trains to Grand Central, does anyone know? Is it just something in the talks and "planning", or is it further from that phase?

RedSoxSuck
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Location: New York

Post by RedSoxSuck » Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:48 pm

Jondude11 wrote:
RedSoxSuck wrote:What many people at this forum, as well as others, do not seem to realize is that ESA is NOT for luxury, but for necessity. If more space was available at NYP, I PROMISE you that LIRR would just use that.

LIRR is currently running at (if not over) capacity into NYP, and simply NEEDS more space.

MNR has all of the space it needs at the present time and forseeable future at GCT and therefore another terminal would be merely a luxury.

I will concede that I am not always able to do this in many situations, but you need to realize that there is a differency between a necessity and a luxury. LIRR to GCT is a necessity. GCT to NYP is a luxury. Accept this fact.
Precisely why I was confused about Metro-North to Penn Station. I mean it would be nice, but it's not necessary. I think if anything, way back when Amtrak planners should have tried to figure out some way to get trains from New Jersey into Grand Central rather than getting trains from Penn Station to north of the city. Grand Central is a much nicer way for tourists to be greeted to the city. But of course, nothing can be done about that now.

How close is MTA definite to bringing some LIRR trains to Grand Central, does anyone know? Is it just something in the talks and "planning", or is it further from that phase?
First of all, ESA is *supposedly* under construction. You can interpret that anyway you want.

Also, my dad has told me that he remembers taking the train into the old NYP, which he says was about as nice as GCT. So the precursors to amtrak had done it right, but then some jerks had other ideas.

To add to what you were saying about it being nice but not necessary, I would like to point out that people have been coming from Westchester (and surrounding areas) into GCT, then transfering to the subway for litterally 100 years. There is no reason to change that given that GCT is more than capable of handling everything now.

There will most likely eventually be people who will demand MNR service to NYP in response to ESA, but to them I say, fine, but only raise the fares of those trains to pay for it. It would only be like $100 each way!

roee
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Post by roee » Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:39 pm

RedSoxSuck wrote:What many people at this forum, as well as others, do not seem to realize is that ESA is NOT for luxury, but for necessity. If more space was available at NYP, I PROMISE you that LIRR would just use that.

LIRR is currently running at (if not over) capacity into NYP, and simply NEEDS more space.
Well, I have one problem with your point. If LIRR needs more space, why do they have to come to GCT? I mean, how much money is the ESA project going to cost? I'm sure for that money capacity could be added to NY Penn. But I'm sure what they feel is if they are going to spend the money to add the capacity, they might as well get into GCT.
Eric
KE5BAX

Obligatory Simpson’s reference:
I'm Double Bacon Genius Burger

RedSoxSuck
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Post by RedSoxSuck » Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:50 am

roee wrote:
RedSoxSuck wrote:What many people at this forum, as well as others, do not seem to realize is that ESA is NOT for luxury, but for necessity. If more space was available at NYP, I PROMISE you that LIRR would just use that.

LIRR is currently running at (if not over) capacity into NYP, and simply NEEDS more space.
Well, I have one problem with your point. If LIRR needs more space, why do they have to come to GCT? I mean, how much money is the ESA project going to cost? I'm sure for that money capacity could be added to NY Penn. But I'm sure what they feel is if they are going to spend the money to add the capacity, they might as well get into GCT.
Roee,

I hear you and I have thought about that. I think the logic is, since they are building something like this out of necessity anyway, they may as well give the commuters the luxury of the option. Also, the tunnel under the river already exists (63d street). Does anyone know where the choke point in NYP is for LIRR? For example, my understnading is that the choke point for NJT is the tunnel under the Hudson, not the actual track space in the station. Are the east river tunnels at capacity? If so, any addition to NYP would require additional tunnels. Also, does anyone know if west side yard is at capacity? If so, that would be another turn off to NYP.

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