Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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mkm4
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Post by mkm4 » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:22 pm

johnpbarlow wrote:MN could use diesels.
Operating diesels are generally not allowed into Penn. And MN dual mode diesels still have the under-running third rail shoe in the way.

johnpbarlow
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Post by johnpbarlow » Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:12 pm

I was implying that just east of Harold interlocking, with a major infrastructure investment, MN could create a connection from the Hell Gate line to the LIRR to Jamaica. So no need to go to NYP. Sorry for the confusion...
Last edited by johnpbarlow on Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

N.Y. State Of Mind

Post by N.Y. State Of Mind » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:38 pm

If NJT could be convinced, they could extend some of their trains to tha New Haven Line to provide people north of New Rochelle direct access to NYP. Since their equipment has no third rail shoes, there would be no problems with third rail compatibility. And it would not strain NYP's capacity by adding more trains, if all New Haven Line-NYP trains were to be through-routed with NJT's routes, that would otherwise go to Sunnyside.

fordhamroad
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NJ Shuttle, New Rochelle to Newark- Airport Access

Post by fordhamroad » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:49 pm

The notion of running some NJ trains through Penn and up the Branch to New Rochelle, for a connection with Metro North's New Haven line, would provide not only access to Penn from the NH side, but also access from Westchester County via Newark/transfer to Newark Airport. This might be a useful thing for the Port Authority. A Co-Op City stop would add still more usefulness to the route. Depending on the hours and schedules, might provide some business for empty seats.Might fit into some existing Penn Station slots. Metro North operates on NJ Transit lines by agreement. Could not NJ Transit also operate on some Amtrak/Metro North lines by agreement?
It has possibilities.
Roger

Noel Weaver
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Penn Station

Post by Noel Weaver » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:23 pm

There are NOT any extra slots in Penn Station, the place only has 21
tracks and not all of them are accessible from the LIRR side.
I doubt if there would be enough demand for a through train from Metro-
North New Haven Line stations to the LIRR via Jamaica.
Running Metro-North trains to Penn Station or running NJT trains to New
Rochelle is something that makes no real sense.
There is already service from Stamford and New Rochelle not to mention
other points too into Penn Station.
There are a number of other problems involved in any attempt to run
trains into Penn Station or beyond that do not belong. I won't bore you
with all of it here.
Noel Weaver

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Otto Vondrak
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Post by Otto Vondrak » Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:27 pm

I think this thread is getting a little far-fetched. Railfans imagine all these connections that commuters would "obviously" want to make "if only" the railroad would go ahead and run them... but in reality just aren't practical.

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N.Y. State Of Mind

Re: Penn Station

Post by N.Y. State Of Mind » Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:33 pm

Noel Weaver wrote:There are NOT any extra slots in Penn Station, the place only has 21
tracks and not all of them are accessible from the LIRR side.
Of course they're isn't any space left, tha only way that tha New Haven Line-NYP plan could work if it makes use of existing NJT runs that would otherwise terminate at NYP and deadhead to Sunnyside.
Noel Weaver wrote:I doubt if there would be enough demand for a through train from Metro-
North New Haven Line stations to the LIRR via Jamaica.
It's not going to Jamaica.
Noel Weaver wrote:Running Metro-North trains to Penn Station or running NJT trains to New
Rochelle is something that makes no real sense.
There is already service from Stamford and New Rochelle not to mention
other points too into Penn Station.
On tha contrary, other than foot-dragging from one of tha agencies, such a plan makes perfect sense. Yes, there is already service from those points via Amtrak, that is if one is willing to pay anywhere $27 to $65 for access to Penn, when Metro-North fares are $11.50/$8.75 from Stamford, and $7.25/$5.50 from New Rochelle. And there is no service between NYP and New Rochelle.
Noel Weaver wrote:There are a number of other problems involved in any attempt to run
trains into Penn Station or beyond that do not belong. I won't bore you
with all of it here.
Noel Weaver
Tha only real problems that I see with that plan are agency politics and influential politicians who can't see or think outside tha box.

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etc

Post by Noel Weaver » Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:24 am

With regard to the previous entry, I am NOT going to waste my time
trying to bring sense to this.
It will NOT happen.
Noel Weaver

johnpbarlow
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Post by johnpbarlow » Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:50 am

I think the site administrator's opinion ...

I think this thread is getting a little far-fetched. Railfans imagine all these connections that commuters would "obviously" want to make "if only" the railroad would go ahead and run them... but in reality just aren't practical.

... doesn't add much content to the interesting, provocative give and take that this thread has generated so far. "Far-fetched" is a matter of degree by definition. We're talking about an urban locale where billions of $ have been spent, are being spent, or may be spent to:

1. Build an airport mass transit system that doesn't go to Manhattan
2. Build a GCT connection for the LIRR
3. Turn a post office into a cosmetic transportation edifice
4. Build a new tunnel from somewhere in NJ to somewhere in Manhattan

So in terms of comparative $ investment building a connection between the NY Connecting and the LIRR isn't outlandish. Nor are any of the other posted ideas. The Bronx has a population of 1.3M people while Queens has 2.2M people - I don't think it's far-fetched to talk about bringing effective intercity rail passenger service to these burgs.

And speaking for myself as just a regular human being (as opposed to a "railfan"), I've spent many an hour with thousands of my equally patient patient colleagues waiting in multi-mile backups trying to get across the Throg's Neck or Whitestone Bridges on my way from CT to LI. There just might be some demand for fast, frequent govt subsidized passenger rail service that would get the other drivers off the road so I can drive my car unimpeded. :wink:

fordhamroad
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Could NJT equipment run over Hell Gate to New Rochelle?

Post by fordhamroad » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:30 pm

Noel: Didn't mean to p*** you off but some topics explore around things, and others are straightforward exchanges of information. I appreciate very much the realistic answers and wealth of information you have contributed out of a lifetime of railroading experience.
I was serious about asking if NJT equipment could technically run through to New Rochelle. A lot of proposals for NH side commuter connections to Penn are improbable because of present restrictions, but with LIRR into GCT some openings might occur, and how could these be used creatively to enhance transportation networks?
One of the first thing PC did was to run the GG-1's to New Haven. What problems did this involve? Were there difficulties running the NH Jets on Pennsy lines after they went out of passenger service? Are current or future NJT MU's or even the Locomotives capable of being run through without serious technical modifications? I wondered if it would be much more feasible to run Jersey equipment up the Branch to Metro North land, than to run Metro North equipment south to Penn Station. Are standards compatable, or at least adaptable, or is this just another nutty railfan speculation.
With regards
Roger

DutchRailnut
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Post by DutchRailnut » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:35 pm

How many times do we have to explain that LIRR will run same amount of trains into Penn station in future,even after ESA is opened.
There will NOT BE ANY OTHER openings, and even if there were openings NJT would have dibs on them way before MNCR got any slots.
LIRR can not even give slots to MNCR from one MTA agency to another, as the slots all belong to AMTRAK, and its up to them to assign them.
Amtrak will not have MNCR come into Penn and takeaway passengers from Amtrak.
Amtrak will also not run NJT to New Rochelle or Stamford and take away Amtrak passengers, despite the dreaming its just not gone happen.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer. I am not a moderator.

Lackawanna484

Post by Lackawanna484 » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:04 pm

I'd like to think that NJT, MTA's agencies, CDOT etc are giving some thought to a world after Amtrak. A world where Amtrak has ceased to exist. It's not unlikely, as the same forces brought MetroNorth and NJT into the train operating business. Maybe there's a 30% chance it will happen in 2005, maybe 50%.

On a regional basis, train service from Morristown to Stamford, or from White Plains to Merrick, or Red Bank to Greenwich might be desirable, identifying what's necessary to achieve it is a good planning drill. Maybe some of it is across platform, maybe some of it is thru service. The labor issues get worked out, nobody loses rights.

I had business guests yesterday who came from Hartford and New Haven for a meeting in the Morristown area. Three trains for one person, two for the other. I go to Stamford (sometimes by train, sometimes drive) at least once monthly. It's usually faster by car in offpeak. About 15% of Newark airport customers are from CT and Westchester. One out of six. That's a real market.

The rigid planning metrics in the NY area are amazing. Twelve years to build a thousand feet of track in Montclair. Eight years to design and build the Wassaic extension. Forever to build a dual mode for the LIRR.

In LA, following the Sylmar quake, the Metrolink people added 22 miles of new commuter line, built three stations and parking lots, and qualified crews IN A LONG WEEKEND. Had rented GO equipment onsite in a week

DutchRailnut
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Post by DutchRailnut » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:11 pm

Again your living in a speculative world. Even if Amtrak as a company ceased to exist the NEC would still be intact as a service unit, probably run by one or two state agencies, it would not imply that MNCR or NJT would get slots into Penn station. so lets stay with reality not dreams.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer. I am not a moderator.

Arti

Post by Arti » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:31 pm

N.Y. State Of Mind wrote:If NJT could be convinced, they could extend some of their trains to tha New Haven Line to provide people north of New Rochelle direct access to NYP.

New Haven is funded by ConnDOT anyway, what difference would it make whom they contract the service?
Both NJT and Amtrak do already provide such service.

Penn Central
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Post by Penn Central » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:55 pm

Has anyone ever tried to ride the 4, 5 or 6 train during the rush hour? When the LIRR comes to GCT (or their own "terminal" beneath it), the situation is going to get worse. For this reason, there has been talk of diverting some of the NH Line traffic into NYP in the slots that will be vacated by the LIRR trains that head to GCT.

There could be several equipment options. Amtrak-style P-32s with retractable shoes, Alp-44 type electrics or M2s with their third rail shoes removed.

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