Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

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RenegadeMonster
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by RenegadeMonster » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:43 pm

Once they resolved all the vibration issues I have been quite pleased with the Rotems myself.

They offer a much smoother and quieter ride than the K cars.

For example, heading south passed Lynn station on an Express train there is a bump. You barely feel it in the Rotems, but on the K cars you bounce in your seat and I have seen people who were standing get thrown about / fall and catch them selves on the seats or walls. You can feel the thump as the draw bar crashes with the other coaches or engine because it to far out of vertical alignment.

Bramdeisroberts
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by Bramdeisroberts » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:47 pm

I'd heard them described as being "much better engineered cars than anything [the T] ever got from Kawasaki". I myself was always really impressed with the quality of the interior materials and the construction of the bogies/running gear compared to the K-cars.

sonicdoommario
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by sonicdoommario » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:16 pm

KevinSun242 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:26 pm

That's the one that was damaged in the early morning Lowell line derailment years ago, right?

Also:

https://mbta.com/news/2019-09-23/fmcb-a ... muter-rail

Looks like more Rotems are coming. 80 coaches approved by the FMCB to be delivered by Hyundai Rotem.
I think that was the 1635. If I remember, the 1812 was damaged when out of service in a collision in Southampton or something.
RenegadeMonster wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:43 pm
Once they resolved all the vibration issues I have been quite pleased with the Rotems myself.

They offer a much smoother and quieter ride than the K cars.

For example, heading south passed Lynn station on an Express train there is a bump. You barely feel it in the Rotems, but on the K cars you bounce in your seat and I have seen people who were standing get thrown about / fall and catch them selves on the seats or walls. You can feel the thump as the draw bar crashes with the other coaches or engine because it to far out of vertical alignment.
Those would be the 900-series K-cars if you're talking about the northside though, right? The rebuilt 700 K-cars very rarely come up north, so I wonder if those would be a different experience than the 900-series.

EDIT: Reading that article, I wonder what the numbering scheme for the new cars will be, if they will be tacked onto the 800 and 1800 series...

RenegadeMonster
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by RenegadeMonster » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:18 am

Mostly the 900 cars yes.

But 2 years ago 777 spent a few months on the north side. It wasn't a rebuilt k-car however. I found it road similar to the 900 cars.

The only rebuilt k cars I have ever been on on the Northside is when a 17XX is leading the train. And only North Bound, so I can't comment on how the handle that bump at Lynn Station

RenegadeMonster
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by RenegadeMonster » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:23 am

Backshophoss wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:18 pm
Lets see if Rotem reopens the philly plant,or subs the work to CRRC in Mass :P
Looks like South Korea according to the information posted on http://www.transithistory.org/roster/
Coaches will be fully assembled in South Korea, and funded 1005 with state funds. These coaches are in addition to the proposed RFP for 200 coaches.

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BandA
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by BandA » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:12 pm

Why is the MBTA not using federal funds to buy equipment? Cost per coach: $4,314,830.74, including FORTY MILLION DOLLARS FOR AN ENGINEERING COMPANY TO SUPERVISE THE CONTRACT, aka $500K per car! If these puppies are being built in Korea we should be paying a lower price. [Edit] >40% US parts, which is good I guess.

This is a no-bid single-source contract?? This is terrible. At these prices they should remanufacture the existing fleet & keep it around indefinitely for trains carrying < 1000 passengers.

Diverging Route
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by Diverging Route » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:55 pm

The FMCB presentation says that of the initial 80 cars, 31 will be control coaches and 31 will be trailers. No mention of lavatories, but I would assume the trailers will have lavs as the current 800s do but the 1800s do not. It also notes two decommissioned coaches (1812 and 1827?) and 16 others to support South Coast Rail will be included.

For those questioning the need to do a sole-source procurement, the presentation describes the justification.

RenegadeMonster
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by RenegadeMonster » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:12 pm

1812 is being prepped to be returned to service after repairs. So we should see 1812 back in service by the end of the year.

1710 is the only one I know of that has truly been decommissioned and has been sold for scrap.

1827 is still listed as in Delaware awaiting car body repairs. How bad was the damage to 1827?


Thanks for posting that Presentation.

What really surprised me most was the entire single level fleet was scheduled for retirement before we expect to take delivery of the first new coach.

The MBB's where scheduled to return in 2013 and 3XX w in 2015. All remaining single level coaches in 2020.

I knew they were coming up to retirement. But I didn't know the time has passed and the remaining coaches were coming up so son.

I imagine they will be phased out MBB and 3XX first when we start taking deliveries and then slowly over the next 5 years.

MBTA3247
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by MBTA3247 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:31 pm

Diverging Route wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:55 pm
The FMCB presentation says that of the initial 80 cars, 31 will be control coaches and 31 will be trailers.
Actually, it says that the 80 new cars are replacing the 31 MBB cabs and 31 MBB trailers. Curiously, it doesn't say what mix of cabs/trailers the new fleet will have.
"The destination of this train is [BEEP BEEP]" -announcement on an Ashmont train.

type 7 3704
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by type 7 3704 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:56 pm

RenegadeMonster wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:23 am
Backshophoss wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:18 pm
Lets see if Rotem reopens the philly plant,or subs the work to CRRC in Mass :P
Looks like South Korea according to the information posted on http://www.transithistory.org/roster/
Coaches will be fully assembled in South Korea, and funded 1005 with state funds. These coaches are in addition to the proposed RFP for 200 coaches.
According to the FMCB presentation:
• Assembly of all vehicles will be in South Korea to expedite delivery of coaches
• HR has committed to utilizing significant US content in the fabrication of these vehicles:
• 49% for Control Trailer Coaches (CTC)
• 47% for Blind Trailer Coaches (BTC)

Trinnau
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by Trinnau » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:58 pm

BandA wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:12 pm
Why is the MBTA not using federal funds to buy equipment? Cost per coach: $4,314,830.74, including FORTY MILLION DOLLARS FOR AN ENGINEERING COMPANY TO SUPERVISE THE CONTRACT, aka $500K per car! If these puppies are being built in Korea we should be paying a lower price. [Edit] >40% US parts, which is good I guess.

This is a no-bid single-source contract?? This is terrible. At these prices they should remanufacture the existing fleet & keep it around indefinitely for trains carrying < 1000 passengers.
That $40 million for the engineering firm is for the entire program over 10 years - minimum 180 potentially 280 coaches. The professional services shown in the 80 coach budget on slide 12

If you're comparing apples-to-apples the actual per-car cost being paid to Rotem is $278.6 million over 80 coaches or just under $3.5 million compared to the just over $2.5 when the first contract for 75 coaches at $190.2 million was awarded in 2008. Using a 3% cost increase per year for 11 years comes out to $263.3 million, which is pretty much in-line with the new price plus $15.3 million for whatever small adjustments the MBTA and Rotem made and agreed to. In the limited time searching I couldn't find the total program cost from 2008 to get the all-in coach cost to compare to the $4.3 million. So I would say the cost of the coaches are comparable to what was paid in 2008.

At $1.65 million for a 5-7 year overhaul per single-level coach shown on slide 7, as a taxpayer I would much rather pay basically twice that for a new vehicle with more seating and a service life of 30-40 years with proper maintenance.

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BandA
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by BandA » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:40 pm

Thanks Trinnau for the good analysis.
Trinnau wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:58 pm
At $1.65 million for a 5-7 year overhaul per single-level coach shown on slide 7, as a taxpayer I would much rather pay basically twice that for a new vehicle with more seating and a service life of 30-40 years with proper maintenance.
The MBBs are the worst-case of the single levels. Apparently they are a unicorn fleet, and seem to have structural rust problems?? The Pullman-Standards & Bombardiers are better rebuild candidates I am speculating, although the MBTA appears to have no will to continue running single level cars despite better passenger & ADA friendly features.

GP40MC1118
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by GP40MC1118 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:23 pm

The 1827 is on the way home. Was on NS 14R into Binghamton today.

D

sonicdoommario
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by sonicdoommario » Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:01 am

I saw the 841 was taken out of service for repairs, will that be headed down to Delaware?

GP40MC1118
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Post by GP40MC1118 » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:06 pm

Unknown. Wonder how extensive the damage is? Is this one of coaches in the Greenbush
tree strike?

D

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