Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

[trainbrain]

Thanks for the info. Seems like having power doors would be low hanging fruit for speeding up running times (since all the doors can be opened).

[ohalloranchris]

But you can only use the power doors at stations that have full length high level platforms, which only amounts to a handful of stations.

[octr202]

Anyone on here have any insight regarding the long doors used by NJT and a few others? I've never been on equipment with them in use, but the concept seems good - doors can be trainlined and opened/closed with the traps either up or down. Are they problematic in snow and ice, or is it just a case of the T being highly conservative in equipment design?

I can't help but thinking that having these doors could do wonders for some of the high volume stops on high volume lines with lots of low platforms (i.e., Worcester, Providence, Lowell).

[trainbrain]

I don't believe that long doors are problematic in snow and ice. In fact they're actually better in a way because snow and ice can't get on the stairs, making getting on and off safer. NJT is the only agency I'm aware of that has them.

[MBTA3247]

AMT also uses them, but I don't think they have traps behind the doors (they don't on their single-level EMUs, I can't find any photos of their multilevels with the doors open).

[Komarovsky]

Anyone on here have any insight regarding the long doors used by NJT and a few others? I've never been on equipment with them in use, but the concept seems good - doors can be trainlined and opened/closed with the traps either up or down. Are they problematic in snow and ice, or is it just a case of the T being highly conservative in equipment design?

I can't help but thinking that having these doors could do wonders for some of the high volume stops on high volume lines with lots of low platforms (i.e., Worcester, Providence, Lowell).

I used to ride NJT growing up in NJ and it's not only power doors, but power traps as well IIRC. You're also correct that it allows conductors to open all the doors at low level stops with the push of a button. The biggest issue I've noticed is the door sensors not registering a door closed, which prevents the train from departing.

When I moved to Worcester and started taking the train there I was mystified at the lack of long doors etc. I too figured it was an issue with the weather, but given the frequency of frozen traps due to snow/sleet blowing onto the bottom of the trap, I can't imagine that long doors would make the issue any worse than it is. Hopefully someone can chime in with some sort of reason.

[trainbrain]

The traps on NJT cars are all manual. The long doors allow them to be open while the train is between stations. The conductors will move through the train and change them as needed, but they don't need to open and close them at every low platform stop. If there are multiple low platform stops in a row, the traps can stay open until the next high platform stop. On MBTA trains, the traps need to be opened and closed at every low level stop, so only the doors attended by a conductor can be opened, slowing down boarding. On NJT trains, the conductors can open all the traps between stations and push a button to open all the doors upon arrival.

[diburning]

Please pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a long door? I tried googling it, but the two words are common enough even when put together that I wasn't able to find any info on them.

[trainbrain]

Long doors cover the low platform stairs, allowing the traps to be open between stations. The doors on MBTA cars do not cover the low platform stairs and they are exposed to the elements. If the traps are opened between stations on MBTA cars, one can fall onto the tracks while the train is moving.

Google NJ Transit train, and any pictures you see of the doors should show what I'm talking about. The Arrow 3 EMU cars are the only equipment in the fleet without them. The Comet 1's are pretty similar to MBTA single levels because didn't have long doors, and the doors were manual. NJT doesn't run them anymore.

[Komarovsky]

The Comet 1's are pretty similar to MBTA single levels because didn't have long doors, and the doors were manual. NJT doesn't run them anymore.

Sure about that? The Whippany Railway Museum has a few preserved and on their website they clearly had long doors originally. http://www.whippanyrailwaymuseum.net/ex ... er-coaches Maybe the rebuilds removed them.....? My memory is fuzzy on this since it's been a while since they've been in service and longer since I've ridden one.

[chrisf]

The Comet IIs are most like MBTA coaches: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=4508121" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They were later rebuilt with a door that covers the stairwells. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=3810863" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Comet I's, originally built for Erie Lackawanna/NJ DOT were designed for low platforms only– this is obvious in comparing how low the doors are relative to those on the Comet II and later. Consequently, there were originally no movable trap doors in the Comet I cars, and the sliding door covered the entire opening including the steps.

[Komarovsky]

Ah, interesting. I always figured that the 200 series were based on the comet I design, since they were both built by Pullman. If they're more closely related to the comet II design that makes sense that they'd both have short doors.

I'm starting to wonder if the decision to go for short doors was a fleet commonality decision rather than an operational one. i wonder if any of the bi-levels(K or R) could be rebuilt with long doors in an economical way(yes I know the K-cars are getting a rebuild now and the R-cars probably wouldn't be worth rebuilding).

[chrisf]

I'm starting to wonder if the decision to go for short doors was a fleet commonality decision rather than an operational one. i wonder if any of the bi-levels(K or R) could be rebuilt with long doors in an economical way(yes I know the K-cars are getting a rebuild now and the R-cars probably wouldn't be worth rebuilding).

It seems very unlikely that it would be possible to use an arrangement like the Comet cars. The K and R cars have a truck that's got an outside frame and the cars are narrower than the Comets so there is very little clearance from the truck to the outside of the car.
Compare the 700 http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=1231691" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to the 600: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=4070011" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MBTA3247]

NJT's MLV cars have similar trucks and clearances to the K cars (from what I can quickly find on Google), so I think it becomes more a problem of whether it's worth the cost of modifying the cars.

[trainbrain]

The Comet 1's are pretty similar to MBTA single levels because didn't have long doors, and the doors were manual. NJT doesn't run them anymore.

Sure about that? The Whippany Railway Museum has a few preserved and on their website they clearly had long doors originally. http://www.whippanyrailwaymuseum.net/ex ... er-coaches Maybe the rebuilds removed them.....? My memory is fuzzy on this since it's been a while since they've been in service and longer since I've ridden one.

The Comet IIs are most like MBTA coaches: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=4508121" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They were later rebuilt with a door that covers the stairwells. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=3810863" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Comet I's, originally built for Erie Lackawanna/NJ DOT were designed for low platforms only– this is obvious in comparing how low the doors are relative to those on the Comet II and later. Consequently, there were originally no movable trap doors in the Comet I cars, and the sliding door covered the entire opening including the steps.

Comet 1's all originally had the low platform only doors (like the ones at the Whippany RR Museum). When they were rebuilt to be like the Comet 2's, some got traps so they could be used at high level platforms, but they never had long doors. The ones with the low platform only doors were retired in the early 2000's by the Comet 5's, and the ones with the traps were retired from 2007 to 2009 and replaced by the Multilevels. Some were sold off to other agencies, but most were scrapped.

The Comet 2's used to be like the rebuilt Comet 1's, but in the early 2000's were rebuilt to look like Comet 4's. They received powered long doors as part of that modification. MBTA cars are most similar to the rebuilt Comet 1's and the unrebuilt Comet 2's, having manual doors that don't cover the stairs.

The Comet 3's were the first cars to have long doors, built in the early 90's. By the time they were up for rebuild, NJT was in the middle of their massive Multilevel order, and BBD offered to give them an option to replace the Comet 3's instead of rebuilding them. They were taken out of service in 2010 to 2011 and stored in Bay Head. They were to be sold to another agency, but that fell through. During Hurricane Sandy, they were not removed from Bay Head, and were trashed accordingly, and likely will never run again. I believe there are plans to scrap them within the next 5 years.