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  • North-South Rail Link Discussion

  • Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.
Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: sery2831, CRail

 #1348354  by BandA
 
The "T" should stop selling land. Maybe 99-yr lease the air rights, and a land-swap here and there. Someone mentioned CR storage at Riverside - don't think that's gonna happen. Maybe add back the quad track between Riverside and Wellesley Farms and use two for storage - no NIMBYs along the golf course. You could double track the curve between original Riverside (junction) and Riverside, use one for storage & the other for "DMU" service, but the NIMBYs wont appreciate it.
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 #1348389  by jwhite07
 
BandA wrote:
...no NIMBYs along the golf course.
Shirley, you can't be serious! See you at the "19th Hole."
Yeah, the people who own that enormous mansion with the pool and tennis court on the other side of the tracks from the golf course wouldn't mind. Not one bit. ;-)
 #1348418  by BandA
 
jwhite07 wrote:
BandA wrote:
...no NIMBYs along the golf course.
Shirley, you can't be serious! See you at the "19th Hole."
Yeah, the people who own that enormous mansion with the pool and tennis court on the other side of the tracks from the golf course wouldn't mind. Not one bit. ;-)
There's room for about 25 cars along Recreation Road, and no residences.
 #1349645  by Disney Guy
 
I heard a discussion on the radio (WRKO) today about the North South rail link and they mentioned not needing as many stub end tracks at North Station and South Station.

Let's imagine that the NSRL was up and running tomorrow.

The routes designated as north south through routes will no longer have fixed departure times out of North Station and/or South Station since those trains may not wait (as if at a timepoint) at either of those stations.

Today, without the NSRL, fewer stub tracks would be needed at North Station and South Station by eliminating fixed departure times for some trains. That is, the train would leave the terminal (North Station or South Station) as soon as passengers have disembarked/boarded or the train could change ends whichever came second. Some trains would deadhead to or arrive empty from layover locations elsewhere e.g. Beacon Park.

Hint hint: Could we eliminate some of the complaints of so many stops inside Route 128 by making some of them e.g. West Station or Yawkee the last inbound stops or first outbound stops, with South Station in between, on some trips?

The radio host also mentioned elevated transit. There are only three possibilities: underground, surface, and elevated. An aerial tramway (like a ski lift) would be interesting and probably not too bad looking. (The technology would probably not be a single loop moving cable and also the vehicles would be enclosed to avoid hazards below from falling objects.) But any elevated system would require transfers at both ends.
 #1349700  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Disney Guy wrote:I heard a discussion on the radio (WRKO) today about the North South rail link and they mentioned not needing as many stub end tracks at North Station and South Station.

Let's imagine that the NSRL was up and running tomorrow.

The routes designated as north south through routes will no longer have fixed departure times out of North Station and/or South Station since those trains may not wait (as if at a timepoint) at either of those stations.

Today, without the NSRL, fewer stub tracks would be needed at North Station and South Station by eliminating fixed departure times for some trains. That is, the train would leave the terminal (North Station or South Station) as soon as passengers have disembarked/boarded or the train could change ends whichever came second. Some trains would deadhead to or arrive empty from layover locations elsewhere e.g. Beacon Park.

Hint hint: Could we eliminate some of the complaints of so many stops inside Route 128 by making some of them e.g. West Station or Yawkee the last inbound stops or first outbound stops, with South Station in between, on some trips?

The radio host also mentioned elevated transit. There are only three possibilities: underground, surface, and elevated. An aerial tramway (like a ski lift) would be interesting and probably not too bad looking. (The technology would probably not be a single loop moving cable and also the vehicles would be enclosed to avoid hazards below from falling objects.) But any elevated system would require transfers at both ends.
That's absolutely not the way it would work. Not even rapid transit operates on "come as they go" basis. Every single transit trip on every MBTA mode is backed by a printed schedule that has to be dispatched, and is subject to mitigation ("We will be standing by for a schedule adjustment") when the trains slip off that schedule. Just because the service is regular enough that passengers don't have to see that printed schedule and can plot trips on X-minute headways doesn't mean that every train isn't held to an individual schedule all the same. Dispatch wouldn't be able to do its job past a certain service density threshold if train positions vs. the clock were completely and utterly random. Not on the single-line Orange Line much less something as complex as the diverging routes of CR.

Every tunnel portal is going to have a high-traffic interlocking where it meets/crosses a surface route. And those will have to be run on a dispatcher schedule all the same or else those interlockings are going to become their own capacity-limiting chokepoints due to the random arrival times. It helps that Fitchburg, Fairmount, and the Old Colony are getting their own portals to spread this around to several interlockings matched to one mainline only; it helps to load-spread and simplify dispatching in some places. But you've still got two hugely critical new portal interlockings with LOTS of crossing traffic: 1) the NH Main/Eastern/Western portal just north of Tower A where tunnel traffic has to cross over surface traffic to reach the Eastern + Western, and surface traffic has to cross over tunnel traffic to reach the NH Main; 2) the NEC/Worcester portal at Washington St. just west of Cove where NEC Tracks 1, 2 and/or 7 need to be crossed over to get in or out of the tunnel.

Dispatch these two interlockings well and you'll hit the uppermost capacity limits of the system from mainline track capacity well before "Tower A+" and "Cove West" get their capacity infringed by trains tripping over each other. But throw slots through there at random from at-will turnbacks not adhering to a paper schedule and the interlockings themselves are going to have such constant conflicts that they impose a far lower ceiling on CR system capacity. There's no other way to do it. Not everything is a homogenous 10-15 minute Indigo headway where some Green Line-esque "We're standing by for a schedule adjustment" corrects the flow. You have 128-oriented/dense-stop/dense-headway Indigos mixing with 495-oriented/less dense-stop/less dense-headway suburban trains that will still see peak vs. off-peak shift change surges and throttle-backs. You will still have more marginal branchlines like Greenbush or Hyannis that'll never quite hit the demand uniformity to run clock-facing schedules and will always to some degree be "conventional" scheduled to avoid lighting money on fire for empty midday or late-night trains. You will still have Amtraks running on a paper schedule to D.C., and secondary Amtrak routes like the "Downeaster Regional" and "Concord Regional" running at somewhat lesser headways adjusted to population and demand. You will still have LD trains like the Lake Shore Limited and Boston-flank Montrealer running only a couple times a day. And you will have a priority pecking order on what most needs to use the tunnel vs. what most needs to stick to the surface, driven by demand between destination points and orientation on the compass. The system has to be able to handle all of this without interlocking conflicts inducing an artificial capacity cap. Euro and SE Asian systems have the same requirements for managing very very heterogeneous schedules calibrated to demand at whatever routes they run to. It's not cost-effective anywhere in the world to run a system that can't scale up or down to demand for the individual places it serves, and to the degree you do see scheduling uniformity on a system it's more because the lines served by the system just happen to have more demand parity than the result of any sort of intentional ops strategy to give them all parity. The highest value proposition you can shoot for on capacity and flexibility is the ability to operate a system that can scale to any headway and any schedule at any time of day on any one service to maximize bang-for-buck, and do so while inducing a bare minimum of traffic conflicts.

That means dispatch operates on a paper schedule, whether that schedule needs to be shared with passengers or not re: clock-facing runs. Just like rapid transit around the world usually still has back-office set schedules. From dispatch's perspective the practice of plotting off fixed schedules was perfected 150 years ago, and save for systems that are more outliers than the norm (e.g. more isolated and/or unusually homogenous than the norm) every evolution in dispatching precision since the 19th century has still involved some sort of set schedule per train. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel or otherwise mess with what works when we get our highest value proposition out of the Link by running set schedules through those uber-critical series of interlockings. It can all be made transparent to the passenger just like on rapid transit, so why limit capacity and flexibility of services through the interlockings by introducing unnecessary randomness?



Caveat: I certainly wouldn't expect a WRKO host to understand this, or any expert guest they have to get that technical on the air when the whole point of the interview is to boil down the gist of it in terms Joe Blow in the Car can understand. It's a limited forum not suited to those kinds of nuts and bolts, so can't fault them too much for being misleading. I guarantee no traffic engineer worldwide would ever ever recommend junking the entire history of dispatching best practices for this build, which is a retrofit of a legacy system and not any sort of end-to-end cleanrooming. The official studies make no such assumptions either. And that's why they are steadfast in explicitly avoiding any notion of this being a SEPTA analogue where the surface terminals either go away or get slashed back. Highest value proposition requires balancing both to achieve max capacity and max flexibility. Otherwise we're going to be complaining about "Tower A+" and "Cove West" being the capacity-limiting banes of existence (with the underground interlockings throwing their own conflicts on the pile) just like surface Tower A and Cove are today. That's simply trading the same capacity cap to a different terminal alignment, not freeing us from that cap.

Avoid the temptation to dig up excuses to bust down or get rid of the surface terminals for OCD notions of conceptual integrity. That's not how this is going to work, and not the capacity trade-offs we'd ever rationally want to incur. Using every bit of terminal capacity to the fullest, surface or tunnel, is what gets us the infinitely flexible system of our dreams. And the tippy-top capacity potential of the surface half of that system of dreams will be available to exploit from Day 1 of tunnel service, so why waste time fixing what won't be broke when the ribbon gets cut at the portal. No notion of conceptual integrity is worth the unnecessary loss of 100-year capacity and flexibility.
 #1349735  by Gerry6309
 
What I got from this is that a bunch of has-beens are trying to bring this thing back from the dead. They want to do a study, which will prove that the project, which may have been viable back in the 1980s, is now prohibitively expensive. We need to improve both terminals, but connecting them is a non-starter.
Last edited by Gerry6309 on Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #1349739  by Disney Guy
 
The idea of not holding let alone laying up of trains at North Station and South Station, with or without the North South Rail Link, is mine, not WRKO's.

Yes, there are times that trains need to lay up. The decision needs to be made whether additional tracks to lay up trains should be constructed at North Station and South Station, or someplace else. Or just keep scheduling the trains to use the available trackage.

What I am not sure of is how many schedule adjustment announcements are made because the subject train is running ahead of schedule versus being delayed because of another train including having to wait for an arrival track at a terminal. That is, whether a train's movement is being adjusted to better match its original schedule or whether its schedule is being adjusted to account for traffic ahead.

In a perfect world (or on a good day) every train has an arrival time slot at each station and makes it. When delays occur, given the NSRL, an early through train may be kept running ahead of schedule through North Station and South Station and perhaps hold for a schedule adjustment further on out, so a late through train can better be fitted in behind it. Expounding on this idea but without the NSRL, going to non-fixed departures can free up a terminal track sooner for a delayed incoming train to be fitted in.
 #1349760  by chrisf
 
Disney Guy wrote:...an early through train may be kept running ahead of schedule through North Station and South Station and perhaps hold for a schedule adjustment further on out, so a late through train can better be fitted in behind it. Expounding on this idea but without the NSRL, going to non-fixed departures can free up a terminal track sooner for a delayed incoming train to be fitted in.
Commuter trains cannot, and do not, run ahead of schedule. Passengers depend on the train being at the station at a given time so that they can get to or from work on a planned schedule; early trains are of as little value as late ones. The trains do not run with sufficient density to make it feasible for a following train to substitute for one that is early.
If a train were to run early, it would be nearly empty, while the following train would rapidly become overcrowded.
This is all in addition to the issues that F-Line mentioned which make this idea totally infeasible. A reliable schedule is an absolute necessity.
 #1349783  by BandA
 
I think Baker is right, we need the South Station expansion first (and storage space that he hasn't talked about and probably isn't aware of), then N-S maybe/someday. Dukakis imagines Commuter Rail to be like the "T" "rabid transit" lines - no need for in-town storage as trains will be in perpetual motion, and no need to enlarge crowded waiting rooms when passenger loads increase as another train is coming in just a few minutes. He isn't entirely wrong - the New Haven line is Commuter Rail that looks a lot like a subway line to me, and "T" CR would benefit from frequent all-day CR service (or parallel express bus off peak). If Boston/Cambridge area is to grow they must have more transportation, and from multiple solutions at once.


If a commuter rail train is somehow ahead of schedule it would probably be held at South station for a few minutes before proceeding through the N-S tunnel.

I don't know Weld's angle; Isn't he a registered lobbyist these days?
 #1349784  by BandA
 
How about this for N-S: 2 tracks CR + two tracks express rapid-transit, shared by red, orange, and green line cars, for express running to bypass all the close together stations in downtown.
 #1349795  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
BandA wrote:How about this for N-S: 2 tracks CR + two tracks express rapid-transit, shared by red, orange, and green line cars, for express running to bypass all the close together stations in downtown.
Green can't intermix with HRT. Trolleys are too low to the ground for safe clearance from electrical arcs from the third rail, they'd get pulverized in a rear-ender with an HRT consist, and the signal systems aren't remotely compatible (not even if CBTC gets installed everywhere, because the LRT version is going to be configured waaaay different from the HRT version). Not to mention the injection point on the South Station side doesn't get anywhere near where you'd have a light rail-converted Transitway and Silver Line Phase III-replacement link to the Central Subway. That's not realistic.

And you DO want that Aquarium stop if something subway is going to be taking one of the 2-track bores of the tunnel. And you can't do that with the hodgepodge of full-high platform heights on the 3 HRT lines, and outright lows on the Green Line. There's only 2 realistic choices if you're going to do a rapid transit half:

-- "The Red X": RL Cabot Yard leads put into revenue service, probably portaling under right before it crosses Track 61 in the Broadway vicinity. Possible stops at Broadway (entirely separate level/alignment from the existing mainline), SS (at the NSRL station, well offset from the existing station), Aquarium, North Station (upstairs from the Orange level). Then bootstrapped onto a widened and/or second-bore Orange Line tunnel on adjacent tracks up to the Community College portal w/ narrow Alewife-ish stub-end storage yard at the surface. Positioning of the surface stub allowing for jumping-off points to any one of the 4 northside RR mainlines for future extension considerations, and/or HRT conversion of the GLX Medford branch.

-- "Atlantic Ave. El Under": Orange splitting at North Station onto separate downtown alignments. Then following the NEC portal tunnel and re-merging with the mainline between Tufts Med and Back Bay. Same Aquarium and SS stops, likely a spacer between SS and BBY (Ink Block?).


Of the two, Red's going to be the best bang-for-buck. The Cabot leads and Columbia Jct. can be used verbatim for revenue service on the new downtown branch with no alteration, limiting the project scope to just the tunnel + immediate approaches. Broadway is there for the taking as an intermediate, and may need the branch duplication if it becomes an Urban Ring locus and/or "Midtown" gets developed into a new neighborhood in non-Olympics context. It offers up the highest possible capacity and service density because the grade separation at Columbia allows for both downtown mains and both southern branches to have equal service levels as today's downtown main without conflicts from crossing movements...an outright doubling of Ashmont and Braintree frequencies to pump the ridership at all 9 branchline stops without needing to put a single shovel in the ground south of Broadway (under a CBTC signal system the resignaling for mainline-level service densities and train spacing is a software change, not a trackside hardware change). And if for some reason painful decisions need to be made to defer the Old Colony + Fairmount NSRL portal builds to a later funding shot, you can give OC riders their North-South connection via transfers at any of 4 shared Red + commuter rail stops: Braintree, Quincy Ctr., JFK, or SS.

Orange has the utility of replicating a known-known historical routing (although the injection points at South Cove and NS aren't angled for loop service like the El used to be able to do), and the north end can finally make use of the express track to feed some of the capacity. It does, however, require more invasive tunnel construction to double the width of that 1-mile NEC lead, and the injection into the South Cove tunnel is going to be messy...significantly higher project costs. It doesn't offer nearly as much extra capacity because the SW Corridor can't be expanded to a matching express track like Haymarket-north. And fewer unique service patterns get served; Back Bay already has a straight shot to North Station, Blue transfers already happen just 1 stop over from Aquarium, and Ink Block or whatever would be covered rather cheaply by the first Green Line surface stop after the portal if Silver to Dudley were converted to light rail and routed through the Tremont tunnel.


So I think if you're studying rapid transit possibilities--or shaving costs on the RR side of the NSRL by building one two-track tunnel bore and leaving the other an empty shell for future scale-ups TBD (rapid transit or just completing RR Tracks 3 & 4)--then feasibility and bang-for-buck are going to gravitate strongly to Red. With Orange being an eminently viable but non-preferred alternative on cost, and any other line being a total nonstarter.
 #1349863  by BandA
 
I didn't know that the type7/8/9 won't clear 3rd rail. I assume olden trolleys did clear the 3rd rail because they ran Orange line through the central subway. Surprised that type7/8/9 couldn't handle an impact with a subway car.

If you build the n-s tunnel, you must keep it busy. The I-93 big dig tunnel is busy all day long every day. I think it is too costly to build intermediate deep stations along Atlantic Ave/Surface Artery, even Aquarium. There's plenty of subway stations nearby, or they can build a trolley line on the surface for less than the cost of deep stations.
 #1349867  by The EGE
 
Trolleys and Main Line El never shared trackage. El used the outer through tracks; trolleys used the inner tracks and looped at Scollay and Park.

East Boston Tunnel trolleys were hauled through the Cambridge Subway from the Longfellow to Eliot Shops from 1916 to 1924 (and EBT subway cars from 1924 to 1952). I believe those cars would clear third rail (as they were early high-floor designs) though they used wire while in the subway. Trolleys and subway cars never mixed in revenue service.
 #1349868  by Arlington
 
Incidentally, Speaker DeLeo is now among 150 legislators to call for studying the NSRL.

I think any HRT in the NSRL needs just one Central Station, but with an over-long two-ended platform and two well-separated headhouses. This is how big WMATA core stations work by feeding big crowds onto both ends of 8-car-long platforms (eg. Union Station, the Farraguts, Metro Center, & L'Enfant)

Assuming that the northern end is roughly under the Aquarium plaza, and if you could use escalators to do a little bit of horizontal "stretching" of the station, a southern headhouse could be as far south as India St/India Row/High St/Rowe's Wharf...perfect for Ferries and the Finanicial District.

If you like that trick and have money to burn, then a Haymarket-Hanover St stop would be pretty sweet too, but I'm trying to be thrifty.
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