All Things WMATA 7000 Series

[Sand Box John]

"geoking66"
Those things just don't look very good. Even the interior LCD strip map looks bad in the car. My question is why don't they just use bench seating instead of 2x2? There would be more capacity with that kind of formation.

The reason why WMATA has chosen to stick with it's present seating configuration is quite simple. Metrorail can not be defined the same way as other heavy rail rapid transit systems. It is not a heavy rail rapid transit system like NYCT, MBTA or CTA nor is it a commuter railroad like the LIRR, NJT or Metra. It is a hybrid similar to bart, but not quite.

The average distance from the urban core to the terminal stations on metrorail is 12.8 miles. The longest distance is 18.8 miles, the shortest is 3.3 miles. When the N Route Silver line is fully opened the distance from the urban core to the terminal station on that line will be 31.7 miles. A 10 to 20 mile ride in 'bench' seat on that line or the other lines would be less then comfortable.

[SchuminWeb]

3.3 miles? Seems a bit short. Which terminal is that?

[WMATAGMOAGH]

3.3 miles? Seems a bit short. Which terminal is that?

Probably Fort Totten

[Sand Box John]

"SchuminWeb", "WMATAGMOAGH"

Calculation error on my part, average distance from terminals to urban core is 13.1 miles not 12.8 miles. The core stations used are Metro Center and Gallery Place. The 3.3 mile figure should be 10.3 miles, the station pair error was Gallery Place - Huntington.

I did not use the Gallery Place - Fort Totten station pairs when calculating the average distance from terminals to urban core because Fort Totten is not a full time terminal.

Here is the list of distances in miles between terminal stations and urban core:

17.95 Shady Grove
13.73 Glenmont
15.52 Springfield-Franconia
11.91 Largo
14.82 Vienna
11.35 New Carrollton
12.65 Greenbelt
10.34 Branch Avenue
10.31 Huntington
31.75 Ashburn

Short turn terminal stations:

10.77 Grosvenor
08.65 Silver Spring
06.97 National Airport (Blue)
04.00 Stadium-Armory
09.98 West Falls Church
05.27 Fort Totten
21.58 Wiehle Avenue
26.72 Dulles Airport

[realtype]

Looks like Metro will get the 7000's sooner rather than later, and that the 4000's will be rehabbed:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03480.html

Bidding process begins next month. Incredible. The 6000-order just started coming this year. 648 cars though, that's amazing. The manufacturers will be killing each other over that order. I predict Kawasaki or Alstom will take this one. But, where will Metro store all those extra cars?

[Sand Box John]

Based on the schedule in the WMATA document in tommyboy6181 posted of 09 04 2008 WMATA is fast tracking the Procurement by 12 months. Plans originally called for the contract to be awarded in December of 2009.

[tommyboy6181]

Don't count out Bombardier either. They ended up beating out Alstom for the 500+ car Chicago order recently and also beat them out for the over 1,000 car order for the London Underground which includes a new signal system and track replacement. Kawasaki is a very solid choice and I would like to see them get this order. Only issue with them is that their facilities can only handle approximately 350 cars at a time, so they don't usually take large orders. The dark horse here would be Siemens because they have multiple facilities and have produced a solid product for the Boston T in their new blue line cars.

Ultimately it will probably be Bombardier vs. Alstom to win the contract. It will also probably be the same deal for the 4k rehab project. Just pray we do not have Hyundai Rotem building anything for the Metro in either contract.

[WMATAGMOAGH]

Don't count out Bombardier either. They ended up beating out Alstom for the 500+ car Chicago order recently and also beat them out for the over 1,000 car order for the London Underground which includes a new signal system and track replacement. Kawasaki is a very solid choice and I would like to see them get this order. Only issue with them is that their facilities can only handle approximately 350 cars at a time, so they don't usually take large orders. The dark horse here would be Siemens because they have multiple facilities and have produced a solid product for the Boston T in their new blue line cars.

Ultimately it will probably be Bombardier vs. Alstom to win the contract. It will also probably be the same deal for the 4k rehab project. Just pray we do not have Hyundai Rotem building anything for the Metro in either contract.

Why do you think Bombardier vs. Alstom? I'm sure Breda and CAF will be in the mix too, they always are.

I'd love to see a Kawasaki built WMATA car some day.

[realtype]

Don't count out Bombardier either. They ended up beating out Alstom for the 500+ car Chicago order recently and also beat them out for the over 1,000 car order for the London Underground which includes a new signal system and track replacement. Kawasaki is a very solid choice and I would like to see them get this order. Only issue with them is that their facilities can only handle approximately 350 cars at a time, so they don't usually take large orders. The dark horse here would be Siemens because they have multiple facilities and have produced a solid product for the Boston T in their new blue line cars.

Ultimately it will probably be Bombardier vs. Alstom to win the contract. It will also probably be the same deal for the 4k rehab project. Just pray we do not have Hyundai Rotem building anything for the Metro in either contract.

Why do you think Bombardier vs. Alstom? I'm sure Breda and CAF will be in the mix too, they always are.

I'd love to see a Kawasaki built WMATA car some day.

Breda hardly has any significant US prescence these days, aside from their MBTA project. I doubt Metro will go with CAF again given the problems they've been having with the 5000's. Let's not bring up Hyundai Rotem again...I can already see the impending MBTA/SEPTA/Metrolink nightmare. Using Rotem for the 7K's is just unthinkable...

[WMATAGMOAGH]

Breda bid both on the 5000s and 6000s. I wouldn't be surprised to see them bid again, that is all.

I've been on decently built CAF cars in Barcelona, Madrid, and Rome. It is unclear what went wrong with the 5000s, or if there were also issues with the various CAF cars I've been on in Europe similar to WMATAs that I just don't know about.

[Sand Box John]

"WMATAGMOAGH"
I've been on decently built CAF cars in Barcelona, Madrid, and Rome. It is unclear what went wrong with the 5000s, or if there were also issues with the various CAF cars I've been on in Europe similar to WMATAs that I just don't know about.

I think the problems can mostly be attributed to the craftsmanship of CAF's US partner AAI.

As you recall, the final assembly was done by AAI in a warehouse in Hunt Valley Maryland.

When I had a look in the building when they were doing final assembly of the 5k cars they were also doing work on San Francisco Muni street cars and SEPTA commuter cars.

[WMATAGMOAGH]

"WMATAGMOAGH"
I've been on decently built CAF cars in Barcelona, Madrid, and Rome. It is unclear what went wrong with the 5000s, or if there were also issues with the various CAF cars I've been on in Europe similar to WMATAs that I just don't know about.

I think the problems can mostly be attributed to the craftsmanship of CAF's US partner AAI.

As you recall, the final assembly was done by AAI in a warehouse in Hunt Valley Maryland.

When I had a look in the building when they were doing final assembly of the 5k cars they were also doing work on San Francisco Muni street cars and SEPTA commuter cars.

What SEPTA cars? The Silverliner Vs that aren't even in service? SEPTA hasn't ordered any new rail equipment since the M4s, and those were delivered in 1998 or so.

I'm behind on my website stuff, but I'll get the Madrid and Barcelona photos from when I was there in June online eventually.

[Sand Box John]

"WMATAGMOAGH"
What SEPTA cars? The Silverliner Vs that aren't even in service? SEPTA hasn't ordered any new rail equipment since the M4s, and those were delivered in 1998 or so.

My memory is a little fuzzy as to what agency the commuter car belonged to, but I do remember they were not MU cars. They may have been NJ transit cars. I am sure about the MUNI street cars because I distinctly remember seeing the repeating MUNI logo on the side of those cars.

Based on my observations it looked like they were doing some kind of rehabilitation.

[realtype]

"WMATAGMOAGH"
What SEPTA cars? The Silverliner Vs that aren't even in service? SEPTA hasn't ordered any new rail equipment since the M4s, and those were delivered in 1998 or so.

My memory is a little fuzzy as to what agency the commuter car belonged to, but I do remember they were not MU cars. They may have been NJ transit cars. I am sure about the MUNI street cars because I distinctly remember seeing the repeating MUNI logo on the side of those cars.

Based on my observations it looked like they were doing some kind of rehabilitation.

I think NJT's Comet V's were put together in Hunt Valley.

[tommyboy6181]

Why do you think Bombardier vs. Alstom? I'm sure Breda and CAF will be in the mix too, they always are.

The big reason I think Bombardier vs. Alstom is because both companies will attempt to outbid each other and have both been securing major projects lately. Bombardier will probably want to get some cars in the Metro since they are the #1 producer of cars in the world. They are on a roll lately and would want to further boost their worldwide presence. After winning the major London Underground project to produce nearly 1,200 cars and the new CityFlo signalling system (supplied by Alstom in the past), the Singapore automated metro project (also supplied by Alstom in the past), the New Delhi project to expand the fleet (supplied by Hyundai-Rotem previously), the Toronto fleet expansion projects (both streetcar and subway), and the Montreal fleet replacement project, Washington will look great in their portfolio.

Alstom will want to further their position as well in the top 3. Washington is 1 of their biggest customers with the 2/3k rehabs, 6k cars, and the signalling system. Then add NYC with over 600 cars being produced in the split order and the potential R-179 and R-188 orders, Atlanta sending them rehabs, and their major european projects such as the Paris Metro. Plus Alstom sued Bombardier to be allowed to bid on the Montreal contract since Quebec was and still is attempting a sole-source contract with Bombardier. Alstom will want to stay in a top 3 position and boost themselves to being the leader in the US.

Breda has not been doing too much here in the US lately except trying to take care of their screwed up projects. Their Boston Type-8 LRV project is almost complete after nearly 10 years and lots of fighting with the organization. The Los Angeles P2550 LRV project has been plagued with problems (leaking HVAC systems, door problems, propulsion problems with the Ansaldo traction drives used (that have never been used here) which is causing that order to be about 2-3 years behind currently. The most recent successful and on-time project for Breda was down in Atlanta where the 100 cars were finished on-time, on-budget and have been performing well. Alstom got the nod to do their rehabs on all of the older cars however.

Kawasaki has a lot of work lately since they are doing the orders on the R160 and PATH contracts. The only issue with them is that their Yonkers and Lincoln plants can only handle up to around 350 cars at a time. Traditionally they usually dont bid on a project with over 300-350 cars at a time. As much as I would like to see them build cars for Washington, I doubt it will happen but they could definitely win it.

I think CAF's problem with the 5k project was working with AAI, which caused their cars to have extensive problems. Also, Metro rushing the order didn't help anything with the Branch Ave extension passenger traffic being way beyond expectations. Metro was scrambling to put together additional 6 car trains from the float used in case of breakdowns or other problems. However now that AAI's transit division was bought by Alstom (during the Baltimore Metro rehab), and that CAF established their own plant in Elmira, NY, it could be a night and day situation. They seem to have produced very good cars for other systems including Rome, which is traditionally supplied by Breda.

Siemens may be looking at the Washington Metro as another big project to further grow their presence in the US. Even though they are the largest supplier of light rail cars in the US, they are just breaking into the US HRV market with their successful Boston Type 07 cars. These cars have been performing very well since being put into service earlier this year. Even though there were some issues that caused delays, the final product is considered excellent. Their major experience is overseas in Europe and in Asia, but have the facilities in the US to make a large scale project work. Even though I don't expect them to win the bid, they are mad about losing the Toronto contract (Toronto decided on a sole-source contract with Bombardier), they may look to boost their portfolio.

Hyundai-Rotem...don't get me started on that. Most of their projects have been messed up and their way of getting to the top is to severely underbid projects and make agencies pay for it later. If they were banned from bidding in Taiwan on any projects because of severe quality problems, being second-guessed by Hong Kong after screwing up propulsion and door systems on the K-cars, and just losing the New Delhi option orders to Bombardier after building the initial cars, there obviously is a reason. Let's hope that the powers that be at Metro see that for what it is.