MARC Waldorf Line?

[Joke Insurance]

"The Metropolitan"The Chesapeake Beach Railroad easement has been left pretty much unmolested in Prince’s Georges County.

Sorry for bringing up an old thread but I needed to address this. After looking at a few maps, there are some "obstructions in the way" such as a public school, Prince George Corrections Department, the neighborhoods along Harrogate Way, Dunkirk Drive and especially Box Tree Drive and Hawkweed Court, and the ROW after passing White House Road is completely gone. It would be a great idea if it was all still there.

[gp40marc69]

I don't really see a Waldorf Line even coming into frution. There is already plenty of commuter bus service to La Plata and the Waldorf area. You could enhance that. Although, I really would like to see a line to the Eastern Shore. It's a shame that that part of Maryland has no kind of alternative transportation options and I know there are alot of people who commute to DC that live on the Eastern Shore. It's the same with western Maryland like Cumberland and Hagerstown.

[gprimr1]

Traffic wise, it can become quite nasty during the afternoon and morning. I still favor bringing the line up to higher speeds and supplementing the bus service with a train or two. Obviously, no reverse peak service or anything since it's dark territory but get everything you can out of the 59mph speed limit for dark territory. Cab signals are already in place once you get to the distance signal for the wye. I think a lot of people would be surprised about how popular this service could be.

As for the Eastern shore, I'd like to see an Aces style train running from DC through Baltimore, and then down the Delmarva secondary, and then MDOT build the final link to west ocean city. At least until Bay Bridge 2 is built, which is supposed to include a provision for a railroad crossing.

Of course, with Maryland, and the USA's current status, it's nothing more than a healthy dream.

[bbunge]

The "other" possible ROW that crosses over the Creek line is the WB&A, although it would require running much farther north (Highbridge in Bowie) on the Creek before turning off than where the Beach line intersects the Creek near 301. At least in PG county, some of the B&A is a trail. Don't know about it once in the District.

It can fun to follow the Beach line through PG county, specially during the winter. Don't know why, really, but at almost any location, you can dig around a bit and find clinkers, likely from the steam locomotives (clinkers are clumps of fused impurities from the coal). I haven't tried to search the ROW with a metal detector, but I've seen a pile of spikes, tie plates and other metal pieces that have been collected over the years along the ROW in the Judd Bay park. Another fun fact is the Merry-go-round that was at the original park at the beach, is now located and operating under cover, beside a 2-foot gauge park train, at Watkins Region Park in PG county, just a couple of miles from the old ROW.

Either of these would have the advantage of allowing CSX to stage trains on the Creek while they await clearance to run down the NEC. CSX runs a surprising bit of traffic on the Creek, but have to work around Amtrak schedules.

Big bucks, though, no matter how you slice it.

Bob Bunge

[7express]

I think Upper Malboro and Waldorf have really grown population wise. Granted, I'm not from there, but there have been a few NCAA basketball games at Upper Marlboro the last few years, and the Atlantic League just recently located a team in Waldorf. I would definatly take Amtrak from BRP-WAS then the Waldorf line out to Waldorf to catch a game at the stadium if this ever comes to fruition.

[Joke Insurance]

In order to save time from trains heading up all the way to the Bowie Junction, could any of the former Chesapeake Beach Railway ROW be used from Upper Marlboro into D.C.? If not, could another alignment be used elsewhere?

[RailVet]

I haven't been out that way in some years, but use of the former CBRY ROW is unlikely because the route would have to be acquired from its current owners and it has been built over in some locations. Also, MARC is typically a "tenant" operator on tracks owned and maintained by others (CSX and Amtrak), not a track owner and maintainer itself. This would be a departure from its usual way of doing business and it's doubtful either MARC or the state of Maryland would want to pursue this option, in part because of the cost involved.

Also, even if the CBRY ROW happened to be available at little or no cost and was free of both post-1935 construction and NIMBYs, it would only take MARC trains as far as eastern DC, not Union Station. Perhaps a connection could be made by ending the line next to a Metro station, but that would not be very satisfying for a heavy-rail commuter line, particularly when all of the other routes (both MARC and VRE) terminate downtown at Union Station. Alaska had the "bridge to nowhere" and this would soon be christened the rail line to nowhere.

I'm not trying to be negative, but there are many significant hurdles facing anyone seeking to make the Popes Creek line, at least in part, a commuter route into DC.

[mmi16]

I haven't been out that way in some years, but use of the former CBRY ROW is unlikely because the route would have to be acquired from its current owners and it has been built over in some locations. Also, MARC is typically a "tenant" operator on tracks owned and maintained by others (CSX and Amtrak), not a track owner and maintainer itself. This would be a departure from its usual way of doing business and it's doubtful either MARC or the state of Maryland would want to pursue this option, in part because of the cost involved.

MARC owns and maintain the line from Frederick Jct. to its station in downtown Frederick, including their service facility near I-70. CSX Dispatches the line and has trackage rights for any freight service.

[RailVet]

That's true, that segment is different from the rest of the MARC system; however, I doubt the state will pursue reactivating a piece of the long-dead CBRY to reach the eastern part of DC. The Frederick branch was intact and being operated by CSX until MARC took over, while the CBRY disappeared a very long time ago.

[mmi16]

That's true, that segment is different from the rest of the MARC system; however, I doubt the state will pursue reactivating a piece of the long-dead CBRY to reach the eastern part of DC. The Frederick branch was intact and being operated by CSX until MARC took over, while the CBRY disappeared a very long time ago.

Just correcting the record that MARC does own track. I have no doubt that the CBRY right of way is far beyond MARC's financial ability to put back in service.

[dt_rt40]

Just an esoteric sociological observation: when I was working for a federal contractor at an agency in downtown DC, and also earlier for a company in Hanover, I noticed that people in Maryland tend to move somewhere in Maryland that gives them what they want, so to speak. A number of the people in southern MD and the Eastern Shore had horrible commutes, but I think - well - that's what they wanted. In fact I remember one who moved further out because he wanted a place with a dock, way down near the 301 bridge. He drove to the Branch Ave. metro IIRC. A woman on the Eastern Shore said she hated the Western Shore and only came over here because her job was here. My point is when I think about the people I know living in those parts of MD, it's hard to imagine them giving up their cars to take a commuter train, and much less pay the enormous cost of putting in a new MARC line so they can ride one. OTOH, I knew a guy who moved to Frederick from somewhere much closer in (Silver Spring, IIRC) specifically because he knew he could take a MARC train from there. If he hadn't cared, he might have moved to Waldorf or whatnot. So, this is another reason to think it will never happen. This _fact_ sparks some of the most contentious web debates I've seen about a state...but a reminder...Maryland is south of the Mason-Dixon. It may be the least southern southern state, but it is a southern state! OTOH, it contains the southernmost northeastern city, which is what Baltimore is. IMHO, it would still take 20-30 years...and gas prices slowly racheting up over that time, which may well happen...for MD to become fully "northeasternized" with a mentality that would support a network the size of Septa, MBTA, or, gasp, any of NYC's systems.

[Joke Insurance]

With the CBRY ROW out of the question, are there any other routes that could be utilized for new rail ROW?

Mind you, I am aware that they'll probably opt out of wanting to build a completely new ROW, but this is the fantasy in me talking.

[realtype]

This _fact_ sparks some of the most contentious web debates I've seen about a state...but a reminder...Maryland is south of the Mason-Dixon. It may be the least southern southern state, but it is a southern state! OTOH, it contains the southernmost northeastern city, which is what Baltimore is. IMHO, it would still take 20-30 years...and gas prices slowly racheting up over that time, which may well happen...for MD to become fully "northeasternized" with a mentality that would support a network the size of Septa, MBTA, or, gasp, any of NYC's systems.

Well, I'll have to disagree with Maryland being a Southern state. Maybe it was back when the M-D Line was drawn and up until the Civil War, but not so much now (although there are definitely some localized Southern traits here and there).

Northern, southern, or whatever though, I think Maryland actually has a deep love affair with rail, but it's not very apparent. I did a project a few years ago on transit usage, and believe it or not, Maryland actually has the highest percentage of people who use transit to commute to work of any state in the country (according to Census data). The B&O railroad Metropolitan and Capitol Subs (predecessors of the MARC Brunswick and Camden lines) predate pretty much every other passenger railroad in this nation including those in the NE. The state also helps support the 2nd busiest subway/heavy rail system in the nation, and will be spending half of its transportation budget over the next few decade or so on rail transit projects.

The problem has to do with numbers, not really mindset. Philadelphia and New York have much larger urban/suburban populations which can support many rail lines. On top of this is Metro, which shares its suburb-to-city model with San Francisco's BART, siphons off a lot of potential riders from MARC. Even people outside of Metro's service area will drive to the end of the line and park. Your example is a typical case of So. MD commuters driving to Branch Ave. This competitive effect in New York (PATH) and Philadelphia (PATCO) is very limited.

Another reason why MARC isn't among the busiest and most expansive commuter rail systems is the 9-5, Mon-Fri federal work schedule shared by most commuters, and it's at the mercy of CSX (and Amtrak) who is absolutely against any additional service without additional track capacity. That said, MARC still manages to carry more passengers than any commuter railroad in the South (including twice as many as neighboring VRE).